New York City will charge drivers going downtown • Hacker News Board

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#21

Post by pierat » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:12 PM UTC

elmerfud wrote: post #3

DirectorKrennic wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

Common American reply. It's turned into "freedom".

Public transit can easily be 1st class transit with freedom, as long as it's prioritized as such. When transit has to fight with vehicles, it's strictly worse, and discourages usage.... Unless you're in the poverty class and have to.

Roads are high speed infrastructure to get from 1 area to the next. We call them highways and interstates. WE NEED THOSE.

Streets are the downtown, slow speed where human scale stuff happens. It's also where transit should be. These are also needed.

Those 2 or 4 lane highish speed abominations where businesses are loosely connected by asphalt oceans are "stroads". They do both a street and a road terribly, induce sprawl, and are terrible for anyone not in a vehicle.

And sheesh, with your polemic, depriotizing motor vehicles doesn't cause you to lose freedom... AS LONG AS OTHER MODES OF TRANSIT ARE EASIER/BETTER.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#22

Post by MrMan » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:12 PM UTC

elmerfud wrote: post #3

DirectorKrennic wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

[dead]

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#23

Post by dangus » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:12 PM UTC

fellowmartian wrote: post #14

When I moved to NYC from Kyiv, I was actually surprised by how chill the traffic in New York is. Obviously it can get annoying around bridges and tunnels, but outside those areas it’s pretty easy to get around, and I live on the west side of FiDi. Not against this legislation, I think it’s a good idea, but I personally spent more time in traffic on Long Island, and upper Manhattan. I don’t own a car though, I just re…

This anecdote is basically another way of saying the incentives of urban design align and become self-fulfilling prophecies.

Suburban dwellers stuck in the automobile mindset automatically assume that big cities must have the most horrendous traffic. It's seems like a logical conclusion: if traffic in my 50,000 person suburb is horrendous, it must be downright horrific in the big city.

But that's not really how it works. In NYC one two track subway tunnel can handle 15 lanes-worth of car occupants.

Ironically, making transit, cycling, and walking more convenient than driving and "punishing" the automobiles actually makes traffic and driving more pleasant.

I think a lot of suburban folks would be really surprised that a two-lane 25mph road can comfortably handle traffic for neighborhoods that have 10x the density of a typical automobile-designed connected with large arterial roadways. When you design a place to only accommodate vehicles, vehicles are what you get.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#24

Post by raldi » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:12 PM UTC

shrubble wrote: post #13

So despite the massive ridership of the subway and the fully paid infrastructure and rights of way from 100 years ago, it can't throw off enough cash for modernization of its systems? And instead politicians decide to tax the successful mode of transportation, which is cars. Note that given the density and NY gas taxes, it is a certainty that cars in this area generate surplus cash.

Driving is hugely subsidized. This proposal is simply to slightly reduce that subsidy, which will continue to be hefty.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#25

Post by jmclnx » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #12

See also: London congestion charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge Singapore Electronic Road Pricing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Road_Pricing Stockholm congestion tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_congestion_tax

When I saw London doing that, I expected cities in the US to start that. I am surprised it took so long.

I expected this because of the push of toll roads to make people use EZPASS. Depending upon the City, I think this makes sense.

But, in the US, I wonder if this will cause another mass migration of people out to the suburbs ? In the US, people are more addicted to their SUVs than heron addicts are to their drug.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#26

Post by ZoomerCretin » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

DaveExeter wrote: post #17

Tinyyy wrote: post #11

I’m a fan of charging market efficient rates for shared goods. The congestion situation in the Holland Tunnel is awful and bleeds out into various streets of Manhattan as well. The cost of sitting in crawling traffic with aggressive drivers cutting around is probably much more than an extra $20.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

There's nothing wrong with public transport. The subway is frequently faster than driving anyway.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#27

Post by bombcar » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

DaveExeter wrote: post #17

Tinyyy wrote: post #11

I’m a fan of charging market efficient rates for shared goods. The congestion situation in the Holland Tunnel is awful and bleeds out into various streets of Manhattan as well. The cost of sitting in crawling traffic with aggressive drivers cutting around is probably much more than an extra $20.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

Discrimination is much easier once you take a racial aspect out and just use socioeconomic status instead.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#28

Post by raldi » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

DaveExeter wrote: post #17

Tinyyy wrote: post #11

I’m a fan of charging market efficient rates for shared goods. The congestion situation in the Holland Tunnel is awful and bleeds out into various streets of Manhattan as well. The cost of sitting in crawling traffic with aggressive drivers cutting around is probably much more than an extra $20.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

Lower-income Americans already take the bus far more than wealthy ones, who are much more likely to be driving.

A congestion charge will fall disproportionately on the wealthy, and allow the buses carrying lower-income folks to move throughout the city faster.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#29

Post by digbybk » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:15 PM UTC

elmerfud wrote: post #3

DirectorKrennic wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

Years of auto and oil industry propaganda has deluded people into equating freedom of movement with car ownership. My freedom of movement is violated when the subway isn’t moving. For people on a bus stuck in traffic, their freedom of movement is violated by a government that incentivizes car ownership and creates gridlock. As a cyclist, my freedom of movement is violated by reckless drivers putting my life at risk, supported by a government captured by the auto industry, failing to build real infrastructure that enables that freedom the way it does for car owners. Not only car owners pay taxes, by the way. Particularly in Manhattan.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#30

Post by MAGZine » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 3:15 PM UTC

shrubble wrote: post #13

So despite the massive ridership of the subway and the fully paid infrastructure and rights of way from 100 years ago, it can't throw off enough cash for modernization of its systems? And instead politicians decide to tax the successful mode of transportation, which is cars. Note that given the density and NY gas taxes, it is a certainty that cars in this area generate surplus cash.

wut? in manhattan, calling 'cars' the successful more of transportation is very weird. the train is almost always faster, cheaper, and more consistent. The pitfalls are accessibility sucks (most stations are not ADA compliant), and frequency drops off later at night, but if you just plan a little it's not a big deal.