Tesla: Not so easily bricked • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#81

Post by Terretta » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:33 PM UTC

abruzzi wrote: post #70

feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

> people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas

Interestingly, the same applied to some models of RX-7. If you ran out of gas, you'd potentially need a service to re-prime it.

Didn't stop me from buying one.

// Not sure if myth. Never ran out.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#82

Post by krschultz » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:33 PM UTC

feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

When my grandfather was 85, he forgot to do all of the maitenance on his car. He drove like 40,000 miles without ever changing the oil and blew up the engine in his BMW 7 series. It wasn't exactly a cheap car.

Replacing the engine in the car was something like $7,000.

I see your point about safety - gas clearly isn't the safest substance in the world. But neither is electricity. My cousin is currently a police officer, and before that he was a first responder for car accidents. He has had specific official training to deal with hybrids becuase you have to avoid the battery cables after an accident when using the jaws of life and what not. And those batteries are more stable than lithium ion, in those cases they are simply concerned about compromising the battery cables. So it kind of cuts both ways.

This is a problem lithium ion powered electric cars. We shouldn't sweep it under the rug. It should be solved now while there are 10,000 electric cars and not 10,000,000 electric cars. It seems like the solution is a combination of educating/warning owners & notifying them by phone or email if the car starts to get too low. That isn't exactly the end of the world. But ignoring it is not the solution.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#83

Post by othermaciej » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:39 PM UTC

It turns out that the poster of the original story is the owner of one of the 'bricked' Teslas. This was apparently leaked to hurt his credibility but at least for me it only enhances it, as it seems he had a first-hand experience with the brick problem.

http://jalopnik.com/5887499/who-is-trying-to-smear-the-tesla...

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#84

Post by Terretta » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:40 PM UTC

Duff wrote: post #34

The headline should read "Tesla: Not so easily bricked under normal circumstances". The problem here is that not everyone lives in California, and most people think of cars as durable (vs. perishable) goods. Those two things cause problems for people who are edge cases. In places like Michigan or New York or Massachusetts, it's not 70F all year round. We have this quaint concept called "winter". In the winter, the lo…

> sports cars leave them in garages for the winter

Live in CT, own a two seater that's never seen snow, for the reasons you mention. It's on a trickle charger to avoid having to replace a regular battery that would go dead if discharged fully, but still had to replace tires that got flat spotted during last year's particularly long winter.

Knowing that about regular batteries, I'd be even more careful with a Tesla, even w/o reading the manual. "Hmm, my regular car battery has to be replaced if completely discharged, and this car is all battery ..."

I think the "different patterns" should actually increase awareness.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#85

Post by politician » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:41 PM UTC

feralchimp wrote: post #79

abruzzi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

"If you leave your $40k battery pack alone for months without a trickle charger, you will kill it" is no more challenging to communicate or implement than "if you run your ICE without oil, you will kill it."

There is a world of difference between overuse leading to failure, and non-use leading to failure. It's disingenuous to claim that the messages are similar because they have abOut the same number of words.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#86

Post by azov » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:42 PM UTC

feralchimp wrote: post #79

abruzzi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

"If you leave your $40k battery pack alone for months without a trickle charger, you will kill it" is no more challenging to communicate or implement than "if you run your ICE without oil, you will kill it."

It is not about communication, it is about function. "You have to constantly pay to keep your car alive. If you leave it alone for a few weeks, it will die". This is the way I read it.

PS. If the battery management system won't allow the car to reach dangerously low level of charge, if it is very unlikely that I will damage my battery by accident - why won't Tesla guarantee it and subsidize battery replacement? Make it a $1K repair, that's enough money to keep people from not plugging their vehicles out of pure carelessness, but don't make it a $40K event that in insurance terms would be a total loss.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#87

Post by durandal1 » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:44 PM UTC

ljf wrote: post #56

csomar wrote: post #31

The blogger might be an ignorant, but the OP post doesn't reassure me. If I go in a 5 months travel doing consulting abroad, and I'm living alone; who guarantee that my car is being constantly put on the charger? There are many cases (plug dysfunction, electric problem...) and $40K is not a trivial amount.

Did you read the article? It stated that not charging the the car WILL NOT lead to $40,000 bricking.

Where did it say that? It acknowledges that deeply discharging may damage the cells, and it does not refute that it would cost $40,000 to fix.

Even the owner's manual state this (except for the $40,000 cost of course).

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#88

Post by phreanix » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

othermaciej wrote: post #83

It turns out that the poster of the original story is the owner of one of the 'bricked' Teslas. This was apparently leaked to hurt his credibility but at least for me it only enhances it, as it seems he had a first-hand experience with the brick problem. http://jalopnik.com/5887499/who-is-trying-to-smear-the-tesla...

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#89

Post by ubernostrum » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

Arjuna wrote: post #75

sephlietz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "The battery management system of the Tesla Roadster keeps the battery from being discharged to a damagingly low state of charge under normal driving conditions. It's true that a full discharge to zero percent state of charge can potentially be damaging to a battery. However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

"However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge." I realize that you are quoting the article, but the owner's manual is simply not in agreement with this sentence. From the Roadster 2/Roadster Sport owner's manual (italic emphasis is mine): "Important! Caution: If the battery’s charge level falls to 0%, it must be plugged in immediately. Failure to do so ca…

There's a lot of conflation going on here.

The original article seemed to be stating or implying that the car's own on-board systems would continue to draw power well past the danger point, drastically reducing the time to destroy the battery.

This article seems to be stating that the car's systems will stop drawing power. The battery will continue to discharge in this situation, due to natural processes, but discharging to a point that destroys the battery takes much longer in that case.

This means there is still a risk that, if left unattended for extended periods (on the order of at least weeks, perhaps longer), the battery will become unusable. But this is not the same as the original claims which seemed to be arguing for design flaws which would hasten that process.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#90

Post by Bud » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 5:50 PM UTC

sephlietz wrote: post #72

Nelson69 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the things that "brick" an ICE can be repaired at relatively low costs. And almost all of those things brick the car by using it, Teslas will brick when you don't use them, you lock it safely in the temperature controlled garage and go away for too long and it dies. It strikes me as a design problem of sorts, you've got a relatively expensive and sophisticated sports car with piles of electronics. I would thi…

From the article: "The battery management system of the Tesla Roadster keeps the battery from being discharged to a damagingly low state of charge under normal driving conditions. It's true that a full discharge to zero percent state of charge can potentially be damaging to a battery. However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

I don't think you are noticing how, if you read the wording closely, this is NOT a rebuttal of the bricking claims. The rebuttal talks about "normal driving conditions". This is non-responsive to the claim in question, which is that if you drive the Tesla for a while til the battery is somewhat low, and then don't plug the car in to charge properly, it can become completely disabled in as little as a week.

So in other words, the original blogger was not claiming that "normal driving" will brick the Tesla. So talking about how the battery management system won't let it brick itself while you are driving it is a misdirection tactic. It does not rebut the claim.