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Tesla: Not so easily bricked

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Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#71

Post by robotresearcher »

DanBC wrote: post #4

The original blog post made a few claims. 1) Tesla warnings were weak, and part of the Tesla documents said it's fine to leave the car unplugged for weeks. 2) Total discharge of batteries is possible under certain extreme conditions, and has happened to 5 people 3) Total discharge of batteries bricks the car, leaving it un-towable and needing a $40,000 battery replacement fix. > Another error on the part of the blogg…

| So, is it possible to totally discharge the battery pack or not?

Physics says "yes".

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#72

Post by sephlietz »

Nelson69 wrote: post #68
feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

Many of the things that "brick" an ICE can be repaired at relatively low costs. And almost all of those things brick the car by using it, Teslas will brick when you don't use them, you lock it safely in the temperature controlled garage and go away for too long and it dies. It strikes me as a design problem of sorts, you've got a relatively expensive and sophisticated sports car with piles of electronics. I would thi…

From the article: "The battery management system of the Tesla Roadster keeps the battery from being discharged to a damagingly low state of charge under normal driving conditions. It's true that a full discharge to zero percent state of charge can potentially be damaging to a battery. However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#73

Post by DanBC »

movingahead wrote: post #43
scott_s wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of what this post meant is that a full discharge is prevented by the controller in the battery itself - much like in laptops, and much like everyone here was surprised that the Tesla battery does not have. So, to be clear, my understanding of this post, with full clarity, is: "A full discharge is disastrous. However, the situations reported were not full discharges. The controller in the battery shut…

Yeah, that is what I picked up from this post. But, I still don't understand how towing and recharging the batteries can cost $40k. Either the original claim about the cost involved in recharging is wrong, or this post claim that the fix is to recharge the batteries is wrong. There is a third highly unlikely case that Tesla is fleecing the customers, who in its mind, made the mistake of letting the charge fall down t…

The other article suggests that the cars cannot be towed when bricked; and that the battery pack is not rechargeable after bricking but needs replacement.

I'm not sure what happens to the value of the dead battery pack when they fit a new pack. Do you get to sell the dead battery back to them or to anyone else? Or is that included in the $40,000 charge?

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#74

Post by degusta »

I wrote the original blog post about Teslas bricking. This IDC/IDG post is embarrassingly wrong about basically everything. The cars are most definitely not "just in need of servicing". Tesla's not even arguing that - I even have a written statement from them that it's $40k to fix.

This alleged "expert" can even get the number of cells right (6,831 by the way).

The article should be retracted.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#75

Post by Arjuna »

sephlietz wrote: post #72
Nelson69 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the things that "brick" an ICE can be repaired at relatively low costs. And almost all of those things brick the car by using it, Teslas will brick when you don't use them, you lock it safely in the temperature controlled garage and go away for too long and it dies. It strikes me as a design problem of sorts, you've got a relatively expensive and sophisticated sports car with piles of electronics. I would thi…

From the article: "The battery management system of the Tesla Roadster keeps the battery from being discharged to a damagingly low state of charge under normal driving conditions. It's true that a full discharge to zero percent state of charge can potentially be damaging to a battery. However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

"However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

I realize that you are quoting the article, but the owner's manual is simply not in agreement with this sentence.

From the Roadster 2/Roadster Sport owner's manual (italic emphasis is mine):

"Important! Caution: If the battery’s charge level falls to 0%, it must be plugged in immediately. Failure to do so can permanently damage the battery and this damage is not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Also, if you allow the battery to fall to a critically low level it may not be possible to charge the vehicle. If you are unable to charge the vehicle, contact Tesla Motors."

[...]

"However, situations may arise in which you must leave the vehicle unplugged for an extended time (for example, at an airport when traveling for a couple of weeks). If this is the case, it is your responsibility to ensure that the battery does not become fully depleted."

[...]

"If for some reason, you are unable to keep the vehicle plugged in when it is not being used, it is up to you to preserve battery life by paying attention to the charge level and the temperature [...]"

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#76

Post by devy »

jimbobimbo wrote: post #53

"They probably aren't actually bricks, but cars in need of servicing." $40k bill is not a "servicing" - it's a new car. My problem with counter-arguments that use "drained oil" as an example, is that oil change is done every few thousand miles (say, 3000 miles in case of my car). Now, this is recommended (albeit, strongly) frequency. This means that if I drove my car around 3000 miles, then went to airport, left my c…

Totally agreed.

There is simply no comparison between a internal combustion engine vehicle and a plug-in electric vehicle as the engines work very differently.

Also $40K service (reboot) is NOT a service, is a COMPLETE REPLACEMENT for the battery packs.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#77

Post by sounds »

DanBC wrote: post #73
movingahead wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that is what I picked up from this post. But, I still don't understand how towing and recharging the batteries can cost $40k. Either the original claim about the cost involved in recharging is wrong, or this post claim that the fix is to recharge the batteries is wrong. There is a third highly unlikely case that Tesla is fleecing the customers, who in its mind, made the mistake of letting the charge fall down t…

The other article suggests that the cars cannot be towed when bricked; and that the battery pack is not rechargeable after bricking but needs replacement. I'm not sure what happens to the value of the dead battery pack when they fit a new pack. Do you get to sell the dead battery back to them or to anyone else? Or is that included in the $40,000 charge?

That's actually the weakest point of the other article - any towing company will be able to move your bricked car even if the wheels leave skid marks all the way onto their tow truck.

Yes, you've hit the stronger point: why should you have to pay $40k, and it's not covered by your warranty or insurance?

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#78

Post by sounds »

scott_s wrote: post #61
rdtsc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I am running with what the original post had in it. Yeah it could be an lie, and if it is, it would be very easy to check, it is not a nebulous claim. Tesla just has to respond and say "no we never charged $40k" if it is in fact not true.

This is my frustration with getting news from blogs. Had this appeared in a standard newspaper, I am confident the reporter would have contacted Tesla and asked them directly if they did indeed charge $40,000. Hence, I am not comfortable taking the original post completely at face value, since the author (from what I can tell) did not perform the kind of reporting I expect from journalists. That leads me to doubt bas…

I'm sorry, you give too much credit to "standard newspapers."

They do very little fact checking, if any.

However, being well-established might make them an easier target for libel / defamation. That doesn't seem to scare them into better reporting, though.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#79

Post by feralchimp »

abruzzi wrote: post #70
feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

"If you leave your $40k battery pack alone for months without a trickle charger, you will kill it" is no more challenging to communicate or implement than "if you run your ICE without oil, you will kill it."

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#80

Post by outworlder »

abruzzi wrote: post #70
feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

Restart, yeah. But I'd imagine that a car left unused for decades would require quite a lot of servicing before returning to the roads. Namely, there are many rubber parts, seals and so on.

It might run, but you really shouldn't.

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