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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#231

Post by tbocek »

ziml77 wrote: post #141
GloriousKoji wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I didn't. I loved DVORAK when I used it and wish it was the standard so all the video game keys and office shortcuts didn't require a QWERTY layout but I feel like using DVORAK permanently ruined the keyboard pathway in my brain. When went back to QWERTY my typing accuracy took a hit compared to what it was before learning DVORAK. A couple decades later it still feels like I don't have absolute mastery of any…

Shortcuts and default keybindings are exactly why I haven't touched Dvorak. I don't want to remap them in every application I use (if the application even supports that). And the remapping might not even be consistent. Take Ctrl-C for example. When it comes to editing text, I'd want to remap it into the same position because on QWERTY theres a bunch of others set up to all be next to each other and easy to press with…

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#232

Post by Symbiote »

fsckboy wrote: post #172
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

> analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character if your code base is C, is dvorak going to help with all the [^A-Za-z]* punctuation characters? That's what slows me down.

These characters/keys are in better positions on Dvorak: '" , -_ +=

These are in worse positions: [{ ]} ;: /?

And this doesn't move: \| `~ and the punctuation over the numbers.

[]{} is significantly worse, equally -_=+ is significantly better, as these keys are swapped. Making an effort to learn and touch-type these keys is pretty similar on either layout.

It's just a matter of learning it. If you really want to, you can customize a keyboard layout on any OS and arrange these keys how you see fit, but then you lose any compatibility advantage of sticking with plain Dvorak.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#233

Post by Symbiote »

TylerE wrote: post #164
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

The issue I have with Dvorak is that it pushes many common programmer keys, like [], , and ; waaaay out to very unergonomic locations.

,. are slightly more convenient than on Qwerty, ;: is obviously worse but hardly "way out" (it's where Z is on Qwerty).

[]{} are indeed further out, but instead we have -_=+ closer. Once we add in all the English I type, file-names, U_R_L?s, --command --flags, /directories/, I think, if anything, the rearrangement is an advantage.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#234

Post by Symbiote »

mdaniel wrote: post #181
akira2501 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it was the burden of typing 'ls'. I'm in the shell a lot, and the dvorak layout is very much _not_ shell friendly.

Sorry, I don't follow: `ls` is dragging your right pinky downward. How is that not shell friendly? (I mean, to each their own, I use dvorak because other layouts hurt my hands, but I would presume there are better non-shell-friendly examples -- but interestingly, I couldn't readily find them since `mv` is also just the right hand, unlike its qwerty friend)

"ls -l" is a bit awful as it's all with the right pinky finger. Compared to pretty much everything else I type on Dvorak, it's terrible.

I have "alias hh='ls -l'" in my .zshrc.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#235

Post by eternityforest »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #185
fsckboy wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You also would not have needed such a class if the keyboard was laid out in Dvorak for everybody you seriously believe, without any doubt, that with a clearly labelled dvorak keyboard and no typing lessons you would not have learned to hunt-and-peck at increasingly higher speeds as you did with QWERTY, but instead put your fingers "on the home row" and used your pinkies? At a young age, we all learn the alphabet, a…

Labelling the keys on the keys was the mistake. The labels should have been written on a cardboard yo put between your keyboard and your screen. Not exactly beginner friendly though.

This thread is an amazing case study in the wide range of natural ability people have at using their hands.

I think I'd take an entire year to be able to use that!

Maybe going the opposite way would be more effective, a mirror in front of you so you can see the keys with your peripheral vision without moving your eyes.

Similar to how you can always see your fingers when typing on a phone. I can type without actively staring at the keyboard on my phone pretty well, although that may because thumbs only is just fewer points to process than ten fingers, for those of us who have trouble paying attention to multiple points at once.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#236

Post by euroderf »

BrotherBisquick wrote: post #225

I could never get past the idea of a key sending a different keystroke than the one printed on it. Yes, I know you're not supposed to look at the keyboard as you type. And I don't. But I still don't like it. It sets off "this is dumb" alarm bells in my head. And because it's impossible to replace every keyboard I own or use, or physically rearrange their keys from QWERTY to Dvorak/Colemak, i'm stuck with QWERTY.

I'm thinking, just tape a few DIY legends onto a few key keys (heh) and then glance at a paper cheat sheet for the rest. Repeat as necessary.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#237

Post by moi2388 »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I just don’t understand that metric or why Dvorak people keep using it. Yes my fingers might travel less, but do we know that moving your hands less leads to a reduction in pain and injury? I’d argue having them constantly in the same position might also do that.

And what about comfort? My index finger is stronger than my pinky; id much rather move further with my index finger than my pinky..

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#238

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

scott00 wrote: post #194
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #156

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak adva…

Messagease is an on-screen phone keyboard optimized for single finger use: https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php I get about 30 words per minute with it.

Very interesting, thank you. I'll definitely try it out.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#239

Post by dizhn »

marssaxman wrote: post #135
marricks wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful. I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

> I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK This is why I don't use vim; I had been touch-typing in Dvorak for years by the time I encountered it, and vim's layout felt like it would require a painful degree of brute memorization.

I know maybe 0.5 percent of what vim (neovim these days) can do and between that and a sane config my text editing skills have gotten at least 4 times better compared to a regular text editor. You can just learn the things that matter to you plus how to save and exit.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#240

Post by toyg »

gnicholas wrote: post #216
toyg wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you buy a new keyboard? No, i just printed out the new layout and stuck it near the monitor. Eventually I moved to blank keycaps. > easy to set up on an iPhone? Why would I care about that? Phones are for thumbs, and thumbs have their own muscle memory. Besides, the strength of layouts like Colemak is typically in leveraging the home-row, which is really not a thing on phones, so there is no point. It would mak…

Huh, so you use Colemak on computer and QWERTY on iPhone? I assumed I'd have to switch everything over in order to get much of a benefit. But if this is viable I might give it a try. I figured I'd have to switch everything over, which would make things difficult when my wife borrows my phone, for example. Can I ask if you code much? Unlike most HNers, I don't, so I'm interested in its usefulness for writing emails an…

I'm not a programmer, but the advantages of Colemak are fundamentally related to writing English. Programming doesn't get any real boost, special characters are still an afterthought (pretty much all on right pinkie).

And yeah, i only use Colemak on laptops/desktops. I don't use external keyboards with phones and tablets, so it's all done with two thumbs, which have their own muscle memory.

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