Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#181

Post by mdaniel » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:18 PM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #122

nfriend wrote: post #26

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak ( https://colemak.com/ ) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite ha…

For me it was the burden of typing 'ls'. I'm in the shell a lot, and the dvorak layout is very much _not_ shell friendly.

Sorry, I don't follow: `ls` is dragging your right pinky downward. How is that not shell friendly?

(I mean, to each their own, I use dvorak because other layouts hurt my hands, but I would presume there are better non-shell-friendly examples -- but interestingly, I couldn't readily find them since `mv` is also just the right hand, unlike its qwerty friend)

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#182

Post by 0000000000100 » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:20 PM UTC

nfriend wrote: post #26

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak ( https://colemak.com/ ) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite ha…

I'm a dvorak user and never really found a way around the shortcut issue. Mac has a native option to use Dvorak with QWERTY shortcuts which is what I prefer, but on windows you have to use buggy programs to map the shortcuts over. Never found anything that worked great. Linux is even worse since you have to mess around with the OS to get it to work, and is a bit different between distros / flavors.

In the end I use a Ergodox keyboard that switches the layout to QWERTY if you hold down the control key, works flawlessly and haven't had to deal with it since.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#183

Post by Aachen » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:27 PM UTC

barroomhero wrote: post #177

osbert wrote: post #174

I built a simulator to allow you to experience what it is like to type in Dvorak before committing to learn the layout. It assumes that you can touch-type in QWERTY. Enter some text into the first text box, and it gives you the equivalent keypresses to make [in QWERTY] that would output the same sentence in Dvorak. https://dvorak.iterinc.com/ https://github.com/osbert/dv-sim2 A former colleague of mine graciously con…

This is great! Also seems like a simple code engine. Kjg; g; uodak! Ap;s ;ddm; pgvd a ;gmrpd ishd dluglde

That's called a substitution cipher and can be defeated by hand by using frequency analysis, in case anyone wanted to know that. Please don't call the party pooper police!

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#184

Post by Aachen » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

agnosticmantis wrote: post #176

I wonder if a keyboard optimized for typists (typing in English with the most common word being ‘the’) is also optimal for programmers (writing code in say Python, with the most commonly used word likely being ‘def’ or ‘if’). The statistics of the two corpora should be different.

I expect there'll be a difference in which layout is optimal when analysing an average python code base with names (variables, functions, etc.) in your language versus regular text in that language, but honestly this is not where typing holds me back. Very rarely do I max out on typing speed for just a few minutes when coding something greenfield. Even if we're talking comfort rather than speed, you'd probably get 99% of the way by laying out symbols differently and leaving the letters and digits untouched.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#185

Post by loup-vaillant » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

fsckboy wrote: post #173

jerf wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think you are learning it wrong." Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking. I imagine this is the dominant case. If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing. You…

> You also would not have needed such a class if the keyboard was laid out in Dvorak for everybody you seriously believe, without any doubt, that with a clearly labelled dvorak keyboard and no typing lessons you would not have learned to hunt-and-peck at increasingly higher speeds as you did with QWERTY, but instead put your fingers "on the home row" and used your pinkies? At a young age, we all learn the alphabet, a…

Labelling the keys on the keys was the mistake. The labels should have been written on a cardboard yo put between your keyboard and your screen.

Not exactly beginner friendly though.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#186

Post by Aachen » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

throwawaymaths wrote: post #5

As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.

Obligatory https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9355276

> Finding an Optimal Keyboard Layout for Swype (sangaline.com)

Can't believe that got only a hundred points and was posted only once in 2015. In my head this is an inspiring if not influential article. Glad it's still online at least.

Conclusion hint: it's not any of the established layouts that would be best for mobile!

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#187

Post by Aachen » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #134

So he mentions the "popular" belief that QWERTY was designed to avoid jams from typists hitting adjacent keys in rapid succession, but he doesn't say whether this is untrue or not. It seemed implied that this is false, but I'm left uncertain. Does anyone know?

Agreed, the video is way too short (basically he gives the introduction and then thanks us for watching?!) and doesn't answer the question. The HN comment thread is interesting but the video leaves the viewer sitting with a finger half raised at the screen going "I still have questions"

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#188

Post by xster » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

0000000000100 wrote: post #182

nfriend wrote: post #26

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak ( https://colemak.com/ ) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite ha…

I'm a dvorak user and never really found a way around the shortcut issue. Mac has a native option to use Dvorak with QWERTY shortcuts which is what I prefer, but on windows you have to use buggy programs to map the shortcuts over. Never found anything that worked great. Linux is even worse since you have to mess around with the OS to get it to work, and is a bit different between distros / flavors. In the end I use a…

15 years on dvorak and shortcuts are the primary impediment. The mac tweaked shortcuts work nicely, but they're not consistent. Swing based UI ignores them. It's also still a bit confusing dealing with ctrl-* vs anything that has a cmd, including cmd-opt-shift-* etc. Seems like re-implementing the mac tweak but in a more complete way manually in qmk would be the ultimate cross-platform solution.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#189

Post by maximilianroos » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

Ironically Qwerty is extremely well-designed for typing on a touchscreen phone.

Dvorak was designed to have common characters on home keys and common character sequences alternate between each hand.

That's great on a keyboard with 4 fingers on each hand. On a touch screen, that's really bad! Characters close together complicate touchscreen recognition - is it "poet", "peet", or "pout"? And consecutive characters on opposite sides of the keyboard creates lots of movement for a single thumb.

Instead, Qwerty has common characters spread out across the keyboard, and many common character sequences close together (e.g. "-ed", "tion"). Which is exactly the pattern that is fast & accurate on a touchscreen.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#190

Post by Aachen » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

geocrasher wrote: post #96

I once decided that since I broke my left hand, it would be a good opportunity to learn Right Hand Dvorak. I was wrong. I was a terrible idea. Instead of being somewhat able to type with QWERTY, I was barely able to type at all with RH Dvorak. I tried it for a day, went back to QWERTY.

I tried Dvorak for a ~month, on and off, and still didn't type as fast as with qwerty. Plus my qwerty performance was reducing.

Can't recommend to do anything but cold turkey (or at least 80% of the time or so), and most definitely you'll need more than a day. You can't conclude it's a bad layout from just one day of starting to learn it!

If I can recommend it at all, that is. If you regularly type on someone else's keyboard, it's already a no go. Yes, this is why we can't have nice things (it's objectively better than qwerty for pretty much any latin-script language that has vowels, yet we don't switch, and I'm basically recommending to maintain that status quo).