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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#161

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

lbourdages wrote: post #159
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #156

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak adva…

OSX has a Dvorak-Qwerty-⌘ layout where commands use the Qwerty letters so people switching can keep their muscle memory. It helped when I tried to learn, but I abandoned because I felt like the effort wasn't worth it. I already type fast enough for my needs.

I actually tried that and it's very confusing, because now no keys are corresponding to new positions of English letters.

I ended up creating my own Dvorak and Cyrillic layouts, so that Cyrillic layout has hotkeys on their Dvorak positions (in most apps, but not all), and Dvorak layout has some keys like -,= on the same positions as ЙЦУКЕН Cyrillic layout.

Still, I didn't yet find a way to make this layout default for a system: macOS refuses to use one of these on lock screen to enter password, but that's a minor inconvenience.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#162

Post by kenhwang »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #156

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak adva…

I switch between Dvorak and QWERTY on my computer keyboards primarily because of the shortcuts being a mess.

But since I only exclusively type with two thumbs on my phone, Dvorak is noticeably faster than QWERTY.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#163

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

kenhwang wrote: post #162
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #156

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak adva…

I switch between Dvorak and QWERTY on my computer keyboards primarily because of the shortcuts being a mess. But since I only exclusively type with two thumbs on my phone, Dvorak is noticeably faster than QWERTY.

I usually hold my phone with just one hand, and, sadly, my hand has only one thumb.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#164

Post by TylerE »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

The issue I have with Dvorak is that it pushes many common programmer keys, like [], , and ; waaaay out to very unergonomic locations.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#165

Post by audunw »

jerf wrote: post #19
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

I'm not 100% sure you're right, but I'm one who did not touch type QWERTY properly. It could be because of the reasons you stated, or because I learned to type on a keyboard myself, not even knowing I should be using touch type. And I found that learning touch typing together with Dvora was great, like you say. It felt very natural with Dvorak, but I don't think the touch typing I learned made me touch type Qwerty properly.

I think there's something to be said about starting with a clean slate on the keyboard layout so you don't have to unlearn old bad habits in the process. For me learning Dvorak had the double benefit of making me type 100% correctly with the new layout. I'm really not sure I would have been motivated to do that if I decided to stick with Qwerty. Getting two comfort improvements with one training period makes it more worthwhile

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#166

Post by Rediscover »

lawn wrote: post #151
GoldenRacer wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What type of layout do you use for 34 keys? I've got a 42 key split board so I'm not a total noob to minimalist keyboard but struggle to see how 34 keys can be used effectively.

This is my layout: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2022/09/06/the_current_t-34... In reality it would be easy to go down to a single thumb key, making it 32 keys. In short I have layers for numbers and symbols, I make heavy use of combos (pressing multiple keys at once) where I have modifiers, big keys like escape and enter and also the numbers and symbols (for typing singletons). I also have different functions for…

I spend the majority of my time in the shell (usually bash) or emacs. Learning the key-maps, especially for zsh and bash, was one of the best things I ever did. Wow, that cut my keypresses down immensely. So did remapping lynx(1) keybindings.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#167

Post by bandrami »

chasil wrote: post #79
jerf wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think you are learning it wrong." Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking. I imagine this is the dominant case. If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing. You…

I also took junior high typing in the 1980s, but we used manual typewriters. There were two IBM Selectrics in the back of the class that were used by lucky students for the day. I type with only the three inner index fingers of each hand, because the keys on the manual typewriters were hard to press. This limits my typing speed to 60wpm. If I used all four fingers, I could probably hit 90.

> the three inner index fingers of each hand

Found the AI

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#168

Post by EduardoBautista »

pmarreck wrote: post #131
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

What about Colemak? Also, as a gamer, I'm concerned about keyboard mappings in games if I switch from Qwerty- I heard bad things, although games really should have switched from a key encoding mapping to a key location mapping a long time ago.

Some games do use key location. Factorio, for example, uses key location. It's really hit or miss. I am not sure what determines whether they use key location or not.

Edit: Basically, the key mappings would automatically change WASD to WARS for Colemak.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#170

Post by EduardoBautista »

dadoum wrote: post #114

Dvorak is also based on English spelling, and thus its benefits vanish almost everywhere in the world. There are other alternative layouts, having the same kind of marginal gain over the standard, but then it's not available everywhere, and if you're a developer, you may also want an easier access to braces and stuff, and from here your keyboard will basically work nowhere unless you buy some kind of custom hardware…

The benefits don't vanish completely, since vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.
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