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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#151

Post by lawn »

GoldenRacer wrote: post #124
lawn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you should also choose a small keyboard, like one with 34 keys or similar.

What type of layout do you use for 34 keys? I've got a 42 key split board so I'm not a total noob to minimalist keyboard but struggle to see how 34 keys can be used effectively.

This is my layout: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2022/09/06/the_current_t-34...

In reality it would be easy to go down to a single thumb key, making it 32 keys.

In short I have layers for numbers and symbols, I make heavy use of combos (pressing multiple keys at once) where I have modifiers, big keys like escape and enter and also the numbers and symbols (for typing singletons). I also have different functions for long press and I use capsword and numword (caps lock / layer that turns off intelligently).

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#152

Post by throwawaymaths »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #125
throwawaymaths wrote: post #5

As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.

I still use Qwerty on mobile. Thumbs are completely different muscle memory. No reason to force an alternative layout everywhere.

Of course not, but in an alternate universe where we had switched over to dvorak, mobile would have been terrible

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#153

Post by throwawaymaths »

xhevahir wrote: post #24
grog454 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Dvorak for keyboards and qwerty for thumbs. Keeps them both in muscle memory to some extent, so it's not too painful when I'm using someone else's keyboard.

Me, too. I tried using Dvorak on the phone once I saw it was available but soon realized that my Dvorak skill was entirely muscle memory and that I had no visual sense of the layout. QWERTY (plus "glide" or "swipe" typing) works fine for that purpose, for me.

The vowel collisions is what makes dvorak nearly unusable

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#154

Post by throwawaymaths »

ascagnel_ wrote: post #12
throwawaymaths wrote: post #5

As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.

I can kind of see that: by moving all the frequently-used letters to the edges and mostly away from each other (and keeping frequent letter pairs further apart), it probably makes interpreting taps between letters and things like swipe keyboards easier to execute.

Specifically the vowels. Lots of words have levenstein distance one vowel in many langs (yes I'm aware many langs don't use qwerty but most are ~)

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#155

Post by deltarholamda »

Symbiote wrote: post #73
kloch wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong. I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique. I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be t…

> the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon. Adding the left hand (ASDF), we can then type 44 words from /usr/share/dict/words, like "salad", "salsa", "flasks", "falls" and "alfalfa". For Dvorak, the instructor would be calling out "H-H-H Space, T…

This is a good point, but what you're actually doing with exercises like this is training muscle memory. It doesn't matter if you're learning Dvorak, QWERTY or how to chisel letters into a block of marble.

The advent of computers also killed one of Dvorak's selling points, which was a lower error rate at speed. Errors on a typewriter were painful to correct and took up a lot of time, but by the 70s and 80s, even typewriters were capable of reasonably easy correction. By the time word processors kicked in, mistakes were nothing to deal with.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#156

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less.

This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY.

Interestingly, all Dvorak advantages on regular keyboard become severe disadvantages on smartphones: Dvorak is optimised for alternating hands while typing as much as possible, but when you type with one thumb, you constantly need to move your finger from one side of a keyboard to another. One could probably come with a screen keyboard layout optimized to type with one finger, but I'm yet to see such keyboard.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#157

Post by zamadatix »

aaron_m04 wrote: post #6

One YouTube comment echoed my experience with Dvorak: > Often overlooked is that the main reason for switching to dvorak isn't speed for most users. The dvorak layout is layed out for minimal movement while maintaining a roughly even split between hands. This reduces strain on a typists hands and helps a great deal with comfort when typing for longer periods of time. I may not type faster than if I had stuck with qwe…

As another anecdote this was my driver switching off of QWERTY as well, with no regrets.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#158

Post by kazinator »

Could one reason that Dvorak didn't catch on is that its established rival, QWERTY, was not randomly designed?

QWERTY supposedly helps to reduce jams.

Dvorak was introduced at a time in which that was still a problem, before electric typewriters.

If Dvorak didn't actually produce its speed advantages on a classic, mechanical typewriter in which a semicircular gallery of arms concentrate their strikes on the same tiny location on the ink ribbon, typists trying Dvorak would have found that Dvorak's claims don't actually hold up.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#159

Post by lbourdages »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #156

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak adva…

OSX has a Dvorak-Qwerty-⌘ layout where commands use the Qwerty letters so people switching can keep their muscle memory.

It helped when I tried to learn, but I abandoned because I felt like the effort wasn't worth it. I already type fast enough for my needs.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#160

Post by Rediscover »

tetris11 wrote: post #18
darrylb42 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

Not a Dvorak user, but I type on different language keypads a lot, both physically and on software keyboards. Your fingers get used to it within a few weeks and after a few years your brain doesn't even register the difference.

> ...different language keypads...

I found out while travelling, around 20 years ago, my (then current) SO would get frustrated with the keyboards in different languages (all over the EU). She gave up even trying to use a different keyboard and started asking me to type for her (it sucks, her being restrained like that).

I also found out that it takes me Regardless of the layout, she is always faster than me on virtual keyboards.

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