Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 244 posts

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#71

Post by crimsontech »

nprateem wrote: post #30
taeric wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different. How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

I learned colemak for the same reason (RSI) but it didn’t help much, it was especially hard because I use multiple computers, RDP and other remote management systems and sometimes other peoples computers.

I don’t know what the status is now, if all the OS have built in Colemak layouts but I don’t think they did at the time.

I got rid of RSI by using a Kinesis advantage keyboard for a year (with qwerty layout). This must have gotten rid of any bad habits I had, I focused hard on not bottoming out hard on the keys too.

After a year I switched to a topre keyboard and it hasn’t come back, it’s been over 10yrs.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#72

Post by nottorp »

citrin_ru wrote: post #63
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

> output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think It's hard to think while typing so the less time I spend typing the more time I have for thinking. Having said that I'm a qwerty user - it took me a lot of time (may be 100 hours) to learn touch typing and I don't have time to repeat the same with dvorak.

Hmm I never consciously learned to touch type, just got into it in time. Not being an actual practiced touch typist, I use like 3 fingers on each hand on average. Last time I took a speed test i could do like 50-60 wpm.

Thing is, this speed is more than enough for a developer. What do you write? Code and some communication with your co workers. In both cases you need to think about it, except the rare cases where you churn out yet another for loop.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#73

Post by Symbiote »

kloch wrote: post #37
jerf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong. I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique. I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be t…

> the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space"

That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon. Adding the left hand (ASDF), we can then type 44 words from /usr/share/dict/words, like "salad", "salsa", "flasks", "falls" and "alfalfa".

For Dvorak, the instructor would be calling out "H-H-H Space, T-T-T Space, N-N-N Space, S-S-S space" — and then U-E-O-A on the left hand. We can already type 467 words! So the instructor would soon be calling out "Season, Tenant, Hushes, Taunts, Outset, Sunset, Assent".

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#74

Post by codetrotter »

marricks wrote: post #40
jerf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful. I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

I use Vim and Dvorak. It only took a couple of weeks to get used to. Never felt a need to customise Vim to change any keybindings strong enough to do so. And am happy I didn’t. For all these years I’ve been using them both together with just the default key bindings.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#75

Post by Jtsummers »

marricks wrote: post #40
jerf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful. I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

Both vi-style and emacs-style key bindings work well under Dvorak without alteration. (Why are people capitalizing it? It's not an acronym, it's a name.)

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#77

Post by davidgrenier »

atentaten wrote: post #66

As someone who is expertly proficient in QWERTY since my teens, is it even possible to learnDVORAK and be proficient in both in an ambidextrous sort of way?

Yes, maintaining your proficient in QWERTY is only a matter of not stopping to use it altogether when switching to a new layout. It'll just be a matter of time spent to become fluent in both. I recommend Colemak however.

I personally didn't maintaing typing on QWERTY, interestingly my brain still has the QWERTY mapping for tablets.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#78

Post by mitchellpkt »

darrylb42 wrote: post #15
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

When I was learning dvorak (more than a decade ago) I bought a cheap keyboard at a garage sale and rearranged the keys. An easier approach is just to get stickers.

I used that trainer keyboard for a summer, until my typing muscle memory was updated to dvorak.

Since then, I don't look at my keyboards while typing, so the fact that the keys are labeled for qwerty doesn't really matter.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#79

Post by chasil »

jerf wrote: post #57
kloch wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong. I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique. I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be t…

"I think you are learning it wrong." Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking. I imagine this is the dominant case. If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing. You…

I also took junior high typing in the 1980s, but we used manual typewriters. There were two IBM Selectrics in the back of the class that were used by lucky students for the day.

I type with only the three inner index fingers of each hand, because the keys on the manual typewriters were hard to press.

This limits my typing speed to 60wpm. If I used all four fingers, I could probably hit 90.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#80

Post by Aloha »

nottorp wrote: post #72
citrin_ru wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think It's hard to think while typing so the less time I spend typing the more time I have for thinking. Having said that I'm a qwerty user - it took me a lot of time (may be 100 hours) to learn touch typing and I don't have time to repeat the same with dvorak.

Hmm I never consciously learned to touch type, just got into it in time. Not being an actual practiced touch typist, I use like 3 fingers on each hand on average. Last time I took a speed test i could do like 50-60 wpm. Thing is, this speed is more than enough for a developer. What do you write? Code and some communication with your co workers. In both cases you need to think about it, except the rare cases where you…

I dont touch type in a proper way most of the time I'm typing with little more than three fingers plus a thumb (two fingers plus a thumb on my dominant hand, and one finger on my non-dominant), but I still manage about 80 WPM on a QWERTY keyboard without looking at the keyboard. When I switch to a full size Model M type, I do use more digits, but not alot more.
Post reply on HN