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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#31

Post by 6510 »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I did the same kind of code heatmap (only for querty) but never made a good implementation that accounts for autocomplete. The symbol characters are already much more heavily used than the abc but the real numbers are probably much worse.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#32

Post by lawn »

grog454 wrote: post #14
irjustin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Split keyboards is my recommendation

Split keyboards can help with wrist positioning but not finger travel, both of which can contribute to wrist problems.

That's why you should also choose a small keyboard, like one with 34 keys or similar.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#33

Post by jacquesm »

oniony wrote: post #25
darrylb42 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

I've been typing Dvorak for nearly twenty years now. I decided to learn when my programming job turned into an offshore team management job, so wanted to make it more interesting. Initially looking down at the Qwerty labelled keyboard would totally mess me up, so I had try really hard not to look down After about a month I could look down on occasion, realise the caps were no help and then continue on Because I would…

This self analysis is - assuming it's all correct - a very interesting capability that you have.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#34

Post by klodolph »

irjustin wrote: post #8
aaron_m04 wrote: post #6

One YouTube comment echoed my experience with Dvorak: > Often overlooked is that the main reason for switching to dvorak isn't speed for most users. The dvorak layout is layed out for minimal movement while maintaining a roughly even split between hands. This reduces strain on a typists hands and helps a great deal with comfort when typing for longer periods of time. I may not type faster than if I had stuck with qwe…

Split keyboards is my recommendation

My experience is that Dvorak solved my RSI problems, and split keyboards do not. The amount of time it takes to retrain into Dvorak is irrelevant to me, because the alternative is something more extreme, like quitting my job, using speech-to-text, or living in pain.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#35

Post by cxr »

gorjusborg wrote: post #29

I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout. I didn't stay with it because of two things: 1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines 2. Vim keybindings

Vim is perfectly usable with Dvorak.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#36

Post by beeforpork »

nfriend wrote: post #26

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak ( https://colemak.com/ ) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite ha…

For Emacs controls, I found that Dvorak is not much of a problem after remapping it a tiny bit:

    (keyboard-translate ?\C-c ?\C-n)
    (keyboard-translate ?\C-h ?\C-c)

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#37

Post by kloch »

jerf wrote: post #19
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong.

I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique.

I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be the most useful class I ever took in school by a wide margin since I've used that skill all day every day for 35 years.

It was a loooong time ago but I remember it started with lots of simple repetition. We were all using IBM selectrics and the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" etc. in a pattern around the keyboard while and we were told to avoid looking at the keyboard at all times. Eventually we would start copying simple and then longer, more complicated text, again without ever looking at the keyboard.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#38

Post by jupp0r »

warp wrote: post #22

With the rise of (split) mechanical keyboards as a hobby in its own right (with open source keyboard firmware like QMK and ZMK) it is much easier to make small tweaks to your layout as you find things which annoy you, so there seems to be a lot of experimentation going on right now with alternative layouts. I feel like I'm one of the last generation of Dvorak typers, anyone who cares about typing ergonomics learning…

I think there is immense value to being able to walk up to any computer, change the keyboard setting and being productive.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#39

Post by rgoulter »

gorjusborg wrote: post #29

I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout. I didn't stay with it because of two things: 1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines 2. Vim keybindings

> Vim keybindings

Dvorak's actually pretty good for vim keybindings.

While 'hjkl' is positionally significant; Dvorak 'jk' are still adjacent and easy to reach in Dvorak, and 'h' is still to the left of 'l' on the same hand.

Other keybindings are better remembered by the letter itself rather than by the position on the keyboard (e.g. "di'" or "gg"), so these aren't that much of an issue.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#40

Post by marricks »

jerf wrote: post #19
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful.

I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

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