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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#21

Post by larrysalibra »

darrylb42 wrote: post #15
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

I've also used for dvorak for a long time...over 15 years. I've never changed keycaps. If you're looking at your fingers while typing qwerty, learning to type dvorak on a qwerty keyboard might just be useful in that it will force you to stop looking at your keyboard and you'll find a speed up in typing just from that!

For me the learning process was very similar to learning a foreign language. At first it was hard, but once I started to get fluency in dvorak, typing in qwerty was hard for a while...but then at some point my qwerty typing ability came back and switching between the two layouts is as easy as switching computer or human languages. (when you know them fluently).

To address your fear, yes, there will a period in the learning process where your fingers get confused switching back and forth but once you get past that it goes away and switching becomes second nature.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#22

Post by warp »

With the rise of (split) mechanical keyboards as a hobby in its own right (with open source keyboard firmware like QMK and ZMK) it is much easier to make small tweaks to your layout as you find things which annoy you, so there seems to be a lot of experimentation going on right now with alternative layouts.

I feel like I'm one of the last generation of Dvorak typers, anyone who cares about typing ergonomics learning about alternate layouts is probably both better off and more likely to try e.g. colemak, or something newer or maybe even design their own.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#23

Post by taeric »

rtkwe wrote: post #20
darrylb42 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

Get good enough touch typing dvorak you don't need to seethe keys so typing on a qwerty keyboard isn't an issue. These days it's not the letters I ever have to personally look at the keys for but the random symbols I don't use often enough to have memorized. Sadly some of those move around too.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D

Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#24

Post by xhevahir »

grog454 wrote: post #11
throwawaymaths wrote: post #5

As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.

I use Dvorak for keyboards and qwerty for thumbs. Keeps them both in muscle memory to some extent, so it's not too painful when I'm using someone else's keyboard.

Me, too. I tried using Dvorak on the phone once I saw it was available but soon realized that my Dvorak skill was entirely muscle memory and that I had no visual sense of the layout. QWERTY (plus "glide" or "swipe" typing) works fine for that purpose, for me.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#25

Post by oniony »

darrylb42 wrote: post #15
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

I've been typing Dvorak for nearly twenty years now. I decided to learn when my programming job turned into an offshore team management job, so wanted to make it more interesting.

Initially looking down at the Qwerty labelled keyboard would totally mess me up, so I had try really hard not to look down

After about a month I could look down on occasion, realise the caps were no help and then continue on

Because I would switch back to Qwerty whenever anyone would come over to my PC, my brain then decided the presence of a person was a key to flip to Qwerty, which was annoying for a while, as whenever anyone would come near I'd lose the ability to type properly.

After the second month I would look down and I was sort of 'see' both characters at the same time: the actual keycap with my eyes and the Dvorak keys with my mind. Was very trippy and a bit difficult to properly explain.

After another month or so, that went away and then I can look at the Qwerty keys and I just sorta ignore them unless I made an effort to read them. My brain has learnt to not read them, if that makes sense. That's still the state now, many years later.

I can still type reasonably fast on Qwerty too if I need to, but it takes me a minute to adjust.

At home I have some blank keyboards I bought, partly to reduce confusion and partly because I think they look cool, but I really couldn't care less any more what the keyboards are labelled with as I rarely look at them.

I use Vim using the original bindings, hjkl are not so badly placed: h and l are still left and right of each other.

I'm actually now debating setting up a stegography keyboard, partly for another amusing brain rewiring exercise, and just because I like geeky things.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#26

Post by nfriend »

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed).

I now use Colemak (https://colemak.com/) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite happy with!

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#27

Post by [deleted] »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

[deleted]

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#28

Post by theonemind »

I use Dvorak. When typing on QWERTY, I feel like I'm playing a secretary in a 1950s movie trying to ham up the notion that I'm really typing something here, because it feels my fingers have to fly around everywhere in an exaggerated and ostentatious manner.

If you have typing speed less than 50 WPM, you'll probably type faster by switching to Dvorak. If you type faster than that before switching, your typing speed will go down and not fully recover automatically unless you train it back up. I lost some speed that I never recovered. It wasn't worth the effort because I can still type fast enough.

A lot of people get hung up on the keybindings thing. zxcv for CUA cut-copy-paste make a nice little row on QWERTY, and hjkl for vi type movements, but as it turns out, it really doesn't matter. Those help you learn when muscle memory doesn't translate into intention without thinking. Once you learn them by muscle memory, it doesn't matter where the keys are. I just use programs with QWERTY shortcuts and press the key on Dvorak wherever it happens to land on the layout, and it works perfectly fine.

I can still touch type QWERTY, but quite a bit slower than Dvorak.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#30

Post by nprateem »

taeric wrote: post #23
rtkwe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get good enough touch typing dvorak you don't need to seethe keys so typing on a qwerty keyboard isn't an issue. These days it's not the letters I ever have to personally look at the keys for but the random symbols I don't use often enough to have memorized. Sadly some of those move around too.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different.

How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

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