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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#211

Post by a1369209993 »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #170
dadoum wrote: post #114

Dvorak is also based on English spelling, and thus its benefits vanish almost everywhere in the world. There are other alternative layouts, having the same kind of marginal gain over the standard, but then it's not available everywhere, and if you're a developer, you may also want an easier access to braces and stuff, and from here your keyboard will basically work nowhere unless you buy some kind of custom hardware…

The benefits don't vanish completely, since vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.

> vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.

Also "s" "t" and "n" are fairly-to-very common in damn near every language (Latin-alphabet or otherwise) due to how phonetics works. (They're the default-voiced-ness for each manner of articulation at the most-default-ish - alveolar - place of articulation for consonant phonemes.) The other two - "h" and "d" - are less universal, but still better than "j" and "g".

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#212

Post by toyg »

gnicholas wrote: post #145
toyg wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen the point in DVORAK or other fancy layouts, until I read a post on Workman and Colemak and decided to give Colemak a try. To this day, I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made - it resulted in much more relaxed typing, and forever broke a bad habit of looking at keys while typing. How long did it take to reach that conclusion? Probably about a month. After achieving decent speeds on Colem…

Did you buy a new keyboard? I assume it's easy to set up on an iPhone? What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard, on someone else's computer or at a kiosk or something? I'd also be curious to know if folks would recommend this for kids, especially those who have not yet mastered touch-typing on QWERTY.

> Did you buy a new keyboard?

No, i just printed out the new layout and stuck it near the monitor. Eventually I moved to blank keycaps.

> easy to set up on an iPhone?

Why would I care about that? Phones are for thumbs, and thumbs have their own muscle memory. Besides, the strength of layouts like Colemak is typically in leveraging the home-row, which is really not a thing on phones, so there is no point. It would make more sense to investigate those fancy swipey versions (or make new layouts that leverage "home columns"?).

> What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard

I just go a bit slower. Which is fine, considering it's such a rare experience...

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#213

Post by Symbiote »

fsckboy wrote: post #175
Symbiote wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon. Adding the left hand (ASDF), we can then type 44 words from /usr/share/dict/words, like "salad", "salsa", "flasks", "falls" and "alfalfa". For Dvorak, the instructor would be calling out "H-H-H Space, T…

> That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon OMG no it does not, your argument is ridiculous. You have to learn all the fingers and then all the keys before you can touchtype, no matter what layout you are learning. You can't efficiently touchtype 20 letters of the alphabet then take your hands off to hunt and peck the rest on a dvorak…

Dvorak minimises finger movement, also described elsewhere in this discussion as being comfortable and so on.

Being able to type many words from the "home" keys (AOEU HTNS) neatly demonstrates this.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#214

Post by projektfu »

brodouevencode wrote: post #110

Most of the comments seem to be "I switched to Dvorak and love it" with a couple of "I switched to Dvorak but had to go back to QWERTY for other people". Is there anyone that became sufficiently proficient with Dvorak and regret it/wished they hadn't wasted their time?

I switched in 1998 and kept it up for several years. BYOD wasn't a thing back then so I had to be able to switch but it wasn't that hard. My main gripe was relearning emacs, never got efficient at it. Too much muscle memory and less memory of the names of the key sequences.

I was an 80 wpm typist since 1993. On Dvorak I never got that fast even on a Model M, which I was wicked fast on using QWERTY. Eventually the laptop keyboards took over and my accuracy and comfort plummeted overall.

I think most problems could be solved by sitting properly and typing on a keyboard with good response like Cherry MX Brown or buckling spring keyboards, and not using a palm rest.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#215

Post by irthomasthomas »

fsckboy wrote: post #175
Symbiote wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon. Adding the left hand (ASDF), we can then type 44 words from /usr/share/dict/words, like "salad", "salsa", "flasks", "falls" and "alfalfa". For Dvorak, the instructor would be calling out "H-H-H Space, T…

> That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon OMG no it does not, your argument is ridiculous. You have to learn all the fingers and then all the keys before you can touchtype, no matter what layout you are learning. You can't efficiently touchtype 20 letters of the alphabet then take your hands off to hunt and peck the rest on a dvorak…

He is talking about the fact that you can type so many words without even moving your hands. Dvorjak reduced the amount you move your hands and fingers to type. That reduces strain. That is the benefit of Dvorjak.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#216

Post by gnicholas »

toyg wrote: post #212
gnicholas wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you buy a new keyboard? I assume it's easy to set up on an iPhone? What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard, on someone else's computer or at a kiosk or something? I'd also be curious to know if folks would recommend this for kids, especially those who have not yet mastered touch-typing on QWERTY.

> Did you buy a new keyboard? No, i just printed out the new layout and stuck it near the monitor. Eventually I moved to blank keycaps. > easy to set up on an iPhone? Why would I care about that? Phones are for thumbs, and thumbs have their own muscle memory. Besides, the strength of layouts like Colemak is typically in leveraging the home-row, which is really not a thing on phones, so there is no point. It would mak…

Huh, so you use Colemak on computer and QWERTY on iPhone? I assumed I'd have to switch everything over in order to get much of a benefit. But if this is viable I might give it a try. I figured I'd have to switch everything over, which would make things difficult when my wife borrows my phone, for example.

Can I ask if you code much? Unlike most HNers, I don't, so I'm interested in its usefulness for writing emails and such, not the special chars used mostly for coding.

Thanks for the feedback!

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#217

Post by Slackwise »

So, why not a steno keyboard instead?

While DVORAK may only be a 5% improvement over QWERTY, a steno keyboard is vastly superior in typing speed and ergonomics, as it's used by courtroom stenographers keeping up with recording speech. (And if you learn on a proper steno keyboard, your muscle memory won't get all confused because the keys are entirely different.)

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#218

Post by noveltyaccount »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I switched to Colemak a long time ago (from qwerty) and it helped with the RSI issues I was having. Definitely more ergonomic.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#219

Post by danzk »

nashashmi wrote: post #105
api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

How did you solve the Shortcuts problem? I really gave Dvorak a good shot, but it completely failed when I was using auto cad CAD.

I use a gaming mouse and assign common shortcuts to the extra buttons.

One nice advantage of mac os is the built-in Dvorak-Qwerty layout which retains Qwerty shortcuts. You need an AHK script to achieve the same result on Windows.

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