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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#191

Post by Detrytus »

causi wrote: post #102
ffgjgf1 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greeks and Romans had almost bo qualms about infanticide though. It was no less acceptable than abortion is nowadays. They only had issues with ritualizing the process or killing older children..

Is there an objective reason to find infanticide worse than abortion, besides cultural mores? It's worse for the performer, certainly, because you have to look at it before you kill it, but a newborn doesn't have any more personality than a fetus.

Well, I think abortion should be allowed until the child is 18. Basically, if parents think their child is a disappointment they should be allowed to cut their losses and start over. /s

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#192

Post by Amezarak »

strogonoff wrote: post #97
dumpsterdiver wrote: post #11

[flagged]

Violence and the Sacred is a book that tries to answer, among some other things, why ritual sacrifices used to happen. I haven’t finished it yet, René Girard could perhaps be a bit meandering, but it’s an insightful read so far (and impossible to do justice in a summary). He observes that in older human societies a transgression could easily lead to an infinite loop of vendetta-like bloodshed. He also observes that s…

This doesn’t pass the smell test. Many ancient cultures also ritually sacrificed warriors and nobility.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#193

Post by Amezarak »

handsaway wrote: post #148
jonathanlb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm drawing a blank here, but what do you mean "state-sanctioned castration"? Do you have examples? The only thing I can think of is the chemical castration that is done to sex offenders or to treat cancer, but for the most part, this is done to adults, and not children. Or are you referring to something else that would affect children of both sexes?

As the other poster mentioned they're referencing treatment of trans children. They are also factually incorrect as surgical intervention is not and has never been part of the recommended treatment for children. As such their intentions are either misinformed or malicious.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000168/pdf/jcm...

You are wrong. Surgical interventions are performed for children by reputable hospitals and surgeons.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#194

Post by transducers »

transducers wrote: post #171
oofnik wrote: post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

`Ibn Arabi has a splendid take on the entire affair. I read it in Toshihiko Izutsu’s Sufism and Taoism and it blew me away. In the Qur’an, the Muslim scripture, the story is touched upon, with an angel arriving just in the nick of time to tell Abraham to cease: “””And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead, 104. We called to him, "O Abraham. You have fulfilled* the vision." Indeed, We thus…

Relevant matter is in page 22 of the pdf. Prior matter touches on the metaphysical framework informing Ibn Arabi’s discourse.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#195

Post by segoooonds »

_a_a_a_ wrote: post #174
pkphilip wrote: post #167

Child and human sacrifices were surprisingly common across the world. Many countries had to pass special laws to ban these practices - but it hasn't yet been rooted out.

Perhaps you could give some examples of where it still occurs, having not been rooted out. I'd be very interested as I'm not aware of any.

Also hasn't been completely rooted out in India.

For example: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39176570

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#196

Post by TSiege »

GloomyBoots wrote: post #100
tomohawk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear. There was no love lost between the Jews and Romans. The civilizations developed independently, and the survival of Judaism required rejection of the Roman world view in most things.

I don’t know. My reading of ancient anti-Christian polemic seems to show that Greeks and Romans familiarized themselves with Jewish sources enough to use them to bolster their arguments. One example being the story of Jesus having been fathered by a Roman soldier named Pantera.

The sack of Carthage happened 150 years before Christ was born and almost 100 years before the conquest of Judea

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#198

Post by inglor_cz »

amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

In a society where tons of kids are born and half of them don't live to see their fifth birthday, children's lives are a lot less valuable than in the Western societies of 2023, where kids are something of a rare resource and they are expected to live full, long lives.

This difference needs to be taken into account when thinking about various probabilities in the past.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#199

Post by Barrin92 »

amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

Ritual sacrifice, including of children is well documented all across the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice). So it's not a question of likelihood, we've dug up plenty of gravesites documenting it especially in Mesoamerica. There's even some modern examples, with an isolated tribe of Chilean natives sacrificing a 5 year old after the 1960 Valdivia earthquake.

You have it sort of backwards. These practices are only 'horror' by modern standards, it doesn't make sense to disregard history because we live by other values than an ancient civilization.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#200

Post by ramblenode »

inglor_cz wrote: post #198
amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

In a society where tons of kids are born and half of them don't live to see their fifth birthday, children's lives are a lot less valuable than in the Western societies of 2023, where kids are something of a rare resource and they are expected to live full, long lives. This difference needs to be taken into account when thinking about various probabilities in the past.

Psychologically, I don't think the value of children has changed. Mourning the death of children is as ancient a literary trope as any.

But from a microeconomic point of view, children were more valuable in pre-industrial times. Most people worked in agriculture or the trades and lived in multi-generation households, and children were necessary to help with chores and eventually take over the main occupation and care for the elder parents. There was no retirement fund, just your children. Food and clothing were more expensive and childbirth was risky, so children represented a major investment. That they were sacrificed is a testament to how much value people placed on the ritual, not the lack of value of children. See also how valuable farm animals were sacrificed.

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