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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#131

Post by justrealist »

justrealist wrote: post #122
csomar wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So those conspiracy theories claiming Jewish world domination are all rather quaint when you consider that Israel was just a backwater You realize Phoenicia and Israel are neighbors and two very small countries? The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km. They are practically the same people except at some point in history they diverged in religion and became hostile to one another. Maybe if they kept sacri…

> The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km There have been genetically and culturally distinct populations that maintained their segregation over far smaller distances than this.

Guys the Ashkenazim maintained about 90% genetic isolation for about 1,000 years and they literally lived in cities a couple dozen meters from other Europeans. I'm not wrong.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#132

Post by vintermann »

oofnik wrote: post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

"Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed, and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors, and they have no comforter. And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun."

That is from Ecclesiastes 4. The author was talking about the problem of evil - power was on the side of the oppressors. People were being evil, and getting away with it.

There's this idea that "the problem of evil" is, why does God permit this? I think that's too convenient. When people are being evil, and getting away with it, that's a problem not just for people who believe in a good God, but for people who believe goodness matters.

And I think the conclusion of the Phoenicians was that people get away with, and are even rewarded for doing evil things, because the gods are into that sort of stuff. The gods are sickos, so you're pretty much screwed, but get their attention with a ritual act of cruelty, and you might get a share of their power.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#133

Post by mistrial9 »

George83728 wrote: post #64
AmericanChopper wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not much of anything the Carthaginians recorded survived. Their civilisation was destroyed as thoroughly as possible, and the only proper accounts of it are Roman and Greek. So nearly everything about Carthaginian history is naturally controversial for that reason.

> Their civilisation was destroyed as thoroughly as possible Ehh, we still remember they exist. How many other civilizations have been so thoroughly eradicated that we don't even remember them at all?

many! mostly nature-friendly ones lacking concrete perhaps?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#134

Post by JoeAltmaier »

potatototoo99 wrote: post #126
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roman brothel excavations (in the old vincas, villages surrounding Roman frontier forts) would have numerous (>50) holes chipped in the sod with sad remains of tiny human bones. The unwanted children of the employees of the brothel, the unwanted and unsupportable offspring of Roman soldiers sowing their wild oats and not stepping up. Not a thing to debate. Sure infant mortality was bad back then but not that bad. And…

I believe the article is about ritual sacrifice, to a deity, and not what you describe that to me just sounds like the misery of no practical means of contraception or abortion.

True. This was to show that child death was no big deal. That was being disputed and compared to modern sensibilities. Just illustrating how vastly differently ancient people viewed this.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#135

Post by easytiger »

jgilias wrote: post #95
easytiger wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author credited is Josephine Quinn, a subscriber to intersectionality who wishes to provide an assumption for easy consumption that it wasn't just Africans and Aborigines who subscribed to barbarism (her assumption). Her assertion is that as the western world is based on the ancient Greek and Roman world (again her assumption) and that they were barbaric and that therefore we in the west are not better than them…

Carthaginians were neither Roman nor Greek. In fact, for a long time it was assumed that Carthaginian child sacrifice practice was just Roman propaganda about their enemies. I fail to see how acknowledging that Berber ancestors likely practiced child sacrifice says anything about modern Western world. I mean, there was plenty of objectionable (by modern standards) behaviour practiced in both Rome and Ancient Greece t…

She has no more or less evidence than anyone previous when this was published.

It's a directed attempt to create a history based entirely on speculation. The language treatment on the linked page screams it out

> And the practice of child sacrifice could even hold the key to why the civilisation was founded in the first place.

and

> 'But in the 20th century, people increasingly took the view that this was racist propaganda on the part of the Greeks and Romans against their political enemy, and that Carthage should be saved from this terrible slander.

and

> 'Dismissing the idea of child sacrifice stops us seeing the bigger picture'

It's not history (and certainly not science as other people here say) - it's polemic reinterpretation to meet a narrative from someone who's pet interests are "colonialism", "postcolonialism" and how evil it is.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#136

Post by eropple »

AllegedAlec wrote: post #2

Turns out that Cato the Censor was right.

About what?

Romans practiced ritual human killing, too. They acted very haughty about others doing it, but they buried people under a temple when Hannibal whomped them at Cannae and they very happily and publicly performed ritual killings of prisoners of war during triumphs. Cato thought that was fine--why then, not, Roma delenda est?

Another example that comes to mind: the xōchiyāōyōtl in Mexico did involve human sacrifice, and it even was a nontrivial ramp-up in the act from pre-Mexica societies. Such acts then used in part to legitimate oppressive activity by European colonizers. They needed, after all, to be civilized. But contemporaneously Christopher Columbus himself, the guy who's got pictures in American government buildings, instituted "bring us impossible amounts of gold every year or we chop off your hands" and "test your swords' sharpness by hacking off children's legs" when lording over the Taino.

This is not an incongruity that can be reconciled, it must be understood and accepted, and the idea of "taking sides" in this flippant way for a conflict two thousand years old is deeply, deeply foolish.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#138

Post by jollyllama »

baryphonic wrote: post #110
c00lio wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disgust against child sacrifice and most human sacrifice was a Roman sensibility, long before there was any church or christianity.

The Romans claimed this about themselves, but I'm not sure they're completely credible, at least about human sacrifice. The Roman Triumphal parade, for instance, included marching captured prisoners of war (often numbering in thousands), who would be led through the triumphal route up to the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus. There, the prisoners would be executed. The Romans may have claimed that they weren't commit…

There's a clear in-group/out-group distinction, though.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#139

Post by jonathanlb »

atlantic wrote: post #128
vintermann wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

[flagged]

I'm drawing a blank here, but what do you mean "state-sanctioned castration"? Do you have examples?

The only thing I can think of is the chemical castration that is done to sex offenders or to treat cancer, but for the most part, this is done to adults, and not children.

Or are you referring to something else that would affect children of both sexes?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#140

Post by jollyllama »

lelanthran wrote: post #21
oofnik wrote: post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

> Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. Maybe not. Humans first do something practical, and then use rituals and tradition to justify it. Here's an alternative scenario: In an age where abortion had a higher chance of killing the woman than childbirth, this was the only practical abortion. It's only after the fact that it gets justified as a sacrifi…

>Humans first do something practical, and then use rituals and tradition to justify it.

take this and combine it with sibling

>And I think the conclusion of the Phoenicians was that people get away with, and are even rewarded for doing evil things, because the gods are into that sort of stuff.

and then you get my theory.

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