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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

ox.ac.uk

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#101
post #17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abandoning/exposing infants (especially girls) was very widespread in the ancient word. It’s possible that ‘sacrifice’ was just a way to justify it through some ritual. This didn’t really change untill the chirch started equating it with murder.

Disgust against child sacrifice and most human sacrifice was a Roman sensibility, long before there was any church or christianity.

Carthāgō dēlenda est

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#102
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. Maybe not. Humans first do something practical, and then use rituals and tradition to justify it. Here's an alternative scenario: In an age where abortion had a higher chance of killing the woman than childbirth, this was the only practical abortion. It's only after the fact that it gets justified as a sacrifi…

Greeks and Romans had almost bo qualms about infanticide though. It was no less acceptable than abortion is nowadays. They only had issues with ritualizing the process or killing older children..

Is there an objective reason to find infanticide worse than abortion, besides cultural mores? It's worse for the performer, certainly, because you have to look at it before you kill it, but a newborn doesn't have any more personality than a fetus.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#103
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very strange to see US-style political discourse applied to the ancients. It really is true that as we do one thing we do all things.

The destruction of Cartagena is the first known example of purposeful destruction of the whole civilization. The USA and the annihilation of native american civilizations came many centuries later.

Maybe read a book on Genghis Khan

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My growing distrust of soft sciences over the past few years means that this article did not move the needle in me to believe Carthage practiced child sacrifice, not one millimeter. There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. In some sense I think it would more obvious than not to assume that child sacrifice did take place.

Couple of issues there; you’d have to question the independence (at the remove of time it’s impossible to know if there was a single source), and if you’re going to take attestation by multiple ancient writers as strong evidence of a thing, well, you’re going to end up believing some odd, and often contradictory, things. That sort of evidence isn’t nothing, but _in itself_ you probably need to be very careful with it…

But this is exactly the point of the paper, that you have to question that, but for me the tombs are very precise.

"In some cases, however, the inscriptions make explicit reference to human victims, with expressions such as »zrm»ˇs(t), (a person who has not yet reached maturity) and mlk b–l (an offering of a citizen); in the Hellenistic period the phrase mlk »dm (human offering) is found. An interpretation of these construct phrases as ‘offering by a citizen/human’ rather than ‘offering of a citizen/human’ must be ruled out by the fact that the phrase mlk »mr is also found at both Cirta and Carthage: ‘offering of a sheep’ (Amadasi Guzzo 2007–2008: 350)."

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#106
More controversially, note that Phoenicia invented the alphabet, had the first maritime global trade empire, colonized Europe in the 13th century BC, and Punic dynasties eventually sat on the Roman throne despite losing the Punic wars ostensibly, with one such Severan emperor dismantling the Pantheon of Jupiter. You can also trace Byzantine dynasties back eastward and later empires too have this connection through dynasties like the Komnenos. So those conspiracy theories claiming Jewish world domination are all rather quaint when you consider that Israel was just a backwater in the classical era and antiquity and it was actually Phoenician merchants who were kingmakers in Babylon and Egypt (due to their control of the Cedars of the Gods which were crucial lumber products for shipbuilding) and would later snowball with their holdings and power as time progressed, or maybe they conveniently fell into obscurity :^)

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#107
post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

North Africa / Fertile Crescent are not as fertile as say the Nile or the deep European forests. There are also much less rivers in these civilizations. My guess is that this was a measure of population control as the natural death rate was not high enough for the region. Since there was no birth-control method, the only method left is to kill the kid.

It's a good idea to disguise this as "child sacrifice" as in the "GOD" asked you to do this. Kind of make you at ease with the decision and execution since you'd not do it on your own.

But hey, that's just my guess and am a random dude on the Internet.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#108
post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

Patrick Tierney's "The Highest Altar" [1] develops a very similar thesis, with first-hand experience by the author.

Wikipedia provides some material on child sacrifice by the Incas in e.g. [2] and [3].

[1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-10-08-bk-201-st... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plomo_Mummy [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Llullaillaco

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of engineers, MDs, and other people with credentials from a 'hard' science don't know the scientific process. Just because two people you know also fall into that category doesn't mean we have some sort crisis in academia.

"the engineer's disease" and perception of domain transference & relevance

Aka my uncle

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#110
post #17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abandoning/exposing infants (especially girls) was very widespread in the ancient word. It’s possible that ‘sacrifice’ was just a way to justify it through some ritual. This didn’t really change untill the chirch started equating it with murder.

Disgust against child sacrifice and most human sacrifice was a Roman sensibility, long before there was any church or christianity.

The Romans claimed this about themselves, but I'm not sure they're completely credible, at least about human sacrifice. The Roman Triumphal parade, for instance, included marching captured prisoners of war (often numbering in thousands), who would be led through the triumphal route up to the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus. There, the prisoners would be executed. The Romans may have claimed that they weren't committing human sacrifice, but this seems hard to believe, given that the soldiers were killed on the grounds of the temple of their chief god, literally honored with the title "best and greatest."

On the whole, the Romans were quite enlightened compared to the other brutal civilizations of the ancient world, being governed more by law than superstition, but they still had these quirks that wouldn't be eradicated till Christianity replaced the state religion.

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