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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#141

Post by ziml77 »

GloriousKoji wrote: post #128
brodouevencode wrote: post #110

Most of the comments seem to be "I switched to Dvorak and love it" with a couple of "I switched to Dvorak but had to go back to QWERTY for other people". Is there anyone that became sufficiently proficient with Dvorak and regret it/wished they hadn't wasted their time?

I wish I didn't. I loved DVORAK when I used it and wish it was the standard so all the video game keys and office shortcuts didn't require a QWERTY layout but I feel like using DVORAK permanently ruined the keyboard pathway in my brain. When went back to QWERTY my typing accuracy took a hit compared to what it was before learning DVORAK. A couple decades later it still feels like I don't have absolute mastery of any…

Shortcuts and default keybindings are exactly why I haven't touched Dvorak. I don't want to remap them in every application I use (if the application even supports that). And the remapping might not even be consistent. Take Ctrl-C for example. When it comes to editing text, I'd want to remap it into the same position because on QWERTY theres a bunch of others set up to all be next to each other and easy to press with just the left hand. But when it comes to sending a SIGINT, I'd want that to remain as Ctrl-C no matter where C is located.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#142

Post by toyg »

gnicholas wrote: post #130

I am generally very efficiency-minded (I run a speed-reading startup!), but I have never even felt the urge to try an alternate layout. Has anyone else who initially resisted these given it a try, and how long did it take you to figure out if it was amazing, or meh?

I've never seen the point in DVORAK or other fancy layouts, until I read a post on Workman and Colemak and decided to give Colemak a try.

To this day, I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made - it resulted in much more relaxed typing, and forever broke a bad habit of looking at keys while typing.

How long did it take to reach that conclusion? Probably about a month. After achieving decent speeds on Colemak, going back to Qwerty just felt painful - even when I was going faster, it felt so much more stressful.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#143

Post by toyg »

WorldMaker wrote: post #65
jupp0r wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is immense value to being able to walk up to any computer, change the keyboard setting and being productive.

It's my lone complaint with Colemak is that Windows still doesn't include it out-of-the-box and needs it to be admin-installed from an MSI bundle that needs to be downloaded (or copied from a thumb drive). Every other modern OS includes it today (including iOS).

I agree. At least they made it trivial to switch layout even on the login screen, with win+spacebar.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#144

Post by philwelch »

jerf wrote: post #57
kloch wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong. I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique. I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be t…

"I think you are learning it wrong." Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking. I imagine this is the dominant case. If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing. You…

> Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking.

It’s possible that a relatively arbitrary keyboard layout would have worked for you too simply by forcing you to relearn how to type, then.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#145

Post by gnicholas »

toyg wrote: post #142
gnicholas wrote: post #130

I am generally very efficiency-minded (I run a speed-reading startup!), but I have never even felt the urge to try an alternate layout. Has anyone else who initially resisted these given it a try, and how long did it take you to figure out if it was amazing, or meh?

I've never seen the point in DVORAK or other fancy layouts, until I read a post on Workman and Colemak and decided to give Colemak a try. To this day, I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made - it resulted in much more relaxed typing, and forever broke a bad habit of looking at keys while typing. How long did it take to reach that conclusion? Probably about a month. After achieving decent speeds on Colem…

Did you buy a new keyboard? I assume it's easy to set up on an iPhone? What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard, on someone else's computer or at a kiosk or something?

I'd also be curious to know if folks would recommend this for kids, especially those who have not yet mastered touch-typing on QWERTY.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#147

Post by jxramos »

api_or_ipa wrote: post #9

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Another angle is comfort and ergonomics. Less stress and strain on the wrists and fingers using less contortions to get where you need to go.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#149

Post by adrian_b »

akira2501 wrote: post #122
nfriend wrote: post #26

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak ( https://colemak.com/ ) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite ha…

For me it was the burden of typing 'ls'. I'm in the shell a lot, and the dvorak layout is very much _not_ shell friendly.

This depends on taste. I find it very easy to type "ls" on Dvorak, where it is typed with the same finger on adjacent keys.

Moreover, the variant of Dvorak that I use is much more shell-friendly than any QWERTY layout.

While for the alphabet and for the punctuation signs that are used in natural languages I use a layout closer to the initial Dvorak layout from 1932 than to the modern Dvorak layout, for the other non-alphanumeric symbols I have made a few changes that I consider best for typing shell commands or other kinds of programs.

The pre-WWII Dvorak layout does not say anything about most non-alphanumeric symbols and there are no suitable standards for them (i.e. any standards than are based on rational criteria, not on preserving a random historical layout), so anyone who wants an optimal keyboard for programming or work with a command-line interface should design a custom layout for the non-alphanumeric symbols, according to taste and experience.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#150

Post by biztos »

chasil wrote: post #79
jerf wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think you are learning it wrong." Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking. I imagine this is the dominant case. If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing. You…

I also took junior high typing in the 1980s, but we used manual typewriters. There were two IBM Selectrics in the back of the class that were used by lucky students for the day. I type with only the three inner index fingers of each hand, because the keys on the manual typewriters were hard to press. This limits my typing speed to 60wpm. If I used all four fingers, I could probably hit 90.

I had a similar beginning but using all the fingers, so I have to ask: was there something wrong with those manual typewriters, or did you just find manual typewriter keys in general hard to press?
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