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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#131

Post by hoosieree »

munificent wrote: post #13
divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

The meta-game of game design: how do you design a game whose mechanics lead to incentives that align with your intentions is a fascinating area. It also has deep connections to policy design in politics. In the political arena, it gets so much more complex because you have disagreement on intentions and people deliberately obfuscating their intentions. So you've got people arguing over legislation who are trying to a…

How meta can you go? I proposed a taxonomy here: https://alexshroyer.com/posts/2022-04-30-Fantasy-Fantasy-Foo...

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#132

Post by boosteri »

permo-w wrote: post #28
7373737373 wrote: post #11

One other weird thing: When a soccer player who is not a goalkeeper prevents a goal by catching the ball with their hands, they "just" get a red card and the attacking team a penalty, even if they would have certainly scored otherwise. Luis Suarez successfully used this in the 2010 World Cup quarter-finals in the Uruguay vs Ghana game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw - Ghana missed the penalty, which led…

the game would be abandoned, but almost certainly it would be a 3-0 forfeit win to the opposition. perhaps if 3-0 goal difference was advantageous?

Good to get this cleared up. I had 5-0 in the back of my mind .. putting it down to too much SWOS back in the heyday

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#133

Post by permo-w »

hn2017 wrote: post #4

Wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados_4%E2%80%932_Grenada https://bleacherreport.com/articles/74831-barbados-vs-grenad... Note this isn't possible in today's rules, afaik

each tournament has its own set of rules, so there’s no one "today's rules" for it not to be possible in; however, in all current major international tournaments, only zero-sum games ever go to extra time, which rules this out

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#134

Post by shusaku »

kodt wrote: post #88
soldarnal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game clock is one of the more common rules that tends to warp gameplay in this way, with teams that are ahead trying to avoid play and run out the clock rather than continue to engage in the contest. The other team, meanwhile, resorts to increasingly desperate tactics like pulling the goalie, intentionally committing fouls, or laterals and trying for the onside kick. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam_En…

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

On the contrary, the clock management makes American football games more exciting, because you know if your team can just get one first down you will win. The tension heightens because you see the finish line.

But it does lead to unsatisfying situations where a person layer intentionally goes down instead of scoring because he doesn’t want to give the ball back to the other team.

I agree with your basketball complaint. The worst is that a team up 3 also has incentive to foul the losing team because they can only score 2 at the line.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#135

Post by permo-w »

jnsie wrote: post #47
permo-w wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different with…

I don't think it would be completely broken, per se, but as a spectacle I think it would be ruined...Obviously not a big concern for 7-a-side, 5-a-side, etc.

why do you think the spectacle would be ruined?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#136

Post by permo-w »

owenmarshall wrote: post #55
permo-w wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different with…

It wouldn't be a broken game in that it'd still function, but I can't imagine it'd be an enjoyable one to watch.

why not?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#137

Post by permo-w »

boosteri wrote: post #132
permo-w wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the game would be abandoned, but almost certainly it would be a 3-0 forfeit win to the opposition. perhaps if 3-0 goal difference was advantageous?

Good to get this cleared up. I had 5-0 in the back of my mind .. putting it down to too much SWOS back in the heyday

SWOS?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#138

Post by magarnicle »

CocaKoala wrote: post #17
haunter wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because they control the ball. You are only offside if your team is controling the ball + you are actively involved in the play [your team's attack]

Interfering with the ball is sufficient to be called for off-side - you need to be in active play, but you can do that when your team doesn't have possession.

The "active play" part is a recent addition I think; at the time of this match it wasn't part of the law.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#139

Post by leni536 »

permo-w wrote: post #8
arduinomancer wrote: post #5

> Any goal scored in extra time would count as two goals That seems like a really strange rule to have

something similar could arise even without double goals in extra time. let’s say your opponents have a man sent off, and you’re up by 1 with minutes left to play, but you need 2 or 3 to qualify. an own-goal to give yourself 30 extra minutes to score those few goals against a weakened opposition is probably the best choice it’s "no draws" rather than "double goals" that creates the unusual incentive. double goals just…

This incentive would be eliminated if goals earned in extra time didn't count towards goal differential at all.

The perverse incentive is because the goal differential is comparing apples to oranges with comparing a score of A-B with a play time of 90 mins to a score of X-Y with a play time of 120 mins.

Counting the extra time goal as two makes this even worse.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#140

Post by manquer »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #95
divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

There was a period in world rally championship where it was beneficial not to win day one or day two of a 3 day championship. This resulted in hilarious but rational situations where top racers would race like maniacs for the entire day, then 200meters before the end of the a last stage of the day slow down and crawl for say 12 seconds, so they would come a second behind somebody else and not lead the pack the next d…

why drive like maniacs only to slow down at the end ? might as well drive slower throughout the stage ? and be most aggressive on day 3 ?
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