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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#41

Post by waynecochran »

barbazoo wrote: post #2

> Football has a lot of strange rules – like Ted Lasso, I still don’t understand exactly how the offside rule works. Spoiler alert, he did figure it out in the end

After years of watching my kids, I am not sure the refs always know what is offside either.

Growing up I always made fun of soccer and considered it a game for uncircumcised foreigners, but I have to like it now because my kids play. The worst thing about soccer is that no one, outside the ref, really knows how much time is left in the game. That and flopping in the box to get penalty shots.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#42

Post by owlninja »

steveylang wrote: post #29
katamarimambo wrote: post #14

Considering how 'tanking' for talent acquiring has become a strategy in american sports, I hope at least we get to see this scenario with both teams trying to score own-tds/baskets/etc and fiercily defending the opponents goal in a match

There's also the situation in American football where the team on defense purposely lets another team score a touchdown rather than stop them for a field goal, in order to have some time left to try to regain the lead. Also vice versa, where the player on offense will purposely fall before going into the end zone. This one though is at least somewhat of a double-edged sword, as it's not a 100% given that the team's k…

Or taking an intentional safety!

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#43

Post by smcl »

7373737373 wrote: post #11

One other weird thing: When a soccer player who is not a goalkeeper prevents a goal by catching the ball with their hands, they "just" get a red card and the attacking team a penalty, even if they would have certainly scored otherwise. Luis Suarez successfully used this in the 2010 World Cup quarter-finals in the Uruguay vs Ghana game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw - Ghana missed the penalty, which led…

Interestingly in rugby they have a concept called a "penalty try" - effectively when there's a particular infringement against a team in a scoring position, the referee awards the points to the attacking team as if they had gone ahead and scored.

See here for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAq-xp54j1w

The play gets repeated a couple of times and explained in some detail throughout but you can see what happens in the first few seconds of the video - blue is about to receive the ball in an incredibly advantageous position (a couple of steps away from scoring) white performs a deliberate foul in defending that play (they deliberately knock it forward and out of play, without trying to catch it). There's more to it than just "a very egregious foul against an attacker" but it's a good-enough simplification for our purposes.

People are already quite resistant to VAR in football already (got my own opinions on that) so I think there's virtually zero chance of football adopting this. But if ever there was an argument for it, it's definitely that Suarez case in 2010, Ghana were cheated out of an historic World Cup semifinal appearance.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#44

Post by bowmessage »

gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

Why is that obvious? Why would a team want to allow their opposition to score any points at all?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#45

Post by barbazoo »

waynecochran wrote: post #41
barbazoo wrote: post #2

> Football has a lot of strange rules – like Ted Lasso, I still don’t understand exactly how the offside rule works. Spoiler alert, he did figure it out in the end

After years of watching my kids, I am not sure the refs always know what is offside either. Growing up I always made fun of soccer and considered it a game for uncircumcised foreigners, but I have to like it now because my kids play. The worst thing about soccer is that no one, outside the ref, really knows how much time is left in the game. That and flopping in the box to get penalty shots.

They know the rule, the problem is just that it's sometimes hard to see where the players are relative to each other the moment the ball leaves someone's foot so there are false positives and false negatives. Tech and replays make it less and less of a problem but it takes away from the game in my opinion. It's becoming too techie.

> Growing up I always made fun of soccer and considered it a game for uncircumcised foreigners

This made me actually lol

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#46

Post by jefftk »

Here's a list I made of how reversing incentives might look for a range of games, including Soccer/Football: https://www.jefftk.com/p/playing-to-lose

This was prompted by a conversation with Ben Orlin, who wrote up his version as https://mathwithbaddrawings.com/2014/06/11/playing-to-lose-o...

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#47

Post by jnsie »

permo-w wrote: post #38
jnsie wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you'd be offside if your own team member passed you the ball while you were between the player and their goal. You wouldn't be offside if the other team had the ball. Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net. Offside stops this from happening by making sure that the receiving p…

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different with…

I don't think it would be completely broken, per se, but as a spectacle I think it would be ruined...Obviously not a big concern for 7-a-side, 5-a-side, etc.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#48

Post by smcl »

dylan604 wrote: post #31
permo-w wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the game would be abandoned, but almost certainly it would be a 3-0 forfeit win to the opposition. perhaps if 3-0 goal difference was advantageous?

for those wondering why 3-0, it's based on tournament points scoring. you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, a point for each goal (maximum of 3 points for goals) per game, and an additional point for the shutout. so, each game in tournament scoring is worth 7 points. after all of those points are added, goal differentials can come into consideration for tie breakers.

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it. If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following in some order of precedence:

- head-to-head results between tied teams

- total goal difference, i.e. sum(goals_scored) - sum(goals_conceded) across all games

- total goals scored across all games

- disciplinary record (number of yellow/red cards awarded against players)

If teams still cannot be separated, it'll fall back on something as simple and cruel as a coin-toss - though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties if the tied teams are playing each other in the last game. Maybe you're thinking of situations like rugby where you can get a "bonus point" games in group stages by scoring 4 tries or keeping the losing margin down to a handful of points.

In any case, I can't give a good reason as to why 3-0 is usually the score given for a walkover - I think it's just generally considered to be a convincing win that isn't too over-the-top.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#49

Post by jabroni_salad »

permo-w wrote: post #30
katamarimambo wrote: post #14

Considering how 'tanking' for talent acquiring has become a strategy in american sports, I hope at least we get to see this scenario with both teams trying to score own-tds/baskets/etc and fiercily defending the opponents goal in a match

is this because the bottom team gets the first draft pick?

Exactly. Look up 76ers "The Process" if you want to see a huge example of it. They spent 3 years losing to reel in embiid and simmons.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#50

Post by thazework »

gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

Unless there is a scenerio where one team really doesn't want the other to get even a point?

Speaking of NHL and weird rules iirc there's an emergency goalie that can be pulled out of the crowd to fill in for either team.

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