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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that there will be politics enough to go around and honestly I only think it strenghten my point. There is no need to bring in external politics since there is enough in the technical space alone.

I mean external politics, not "office politics". There is no meaningful way of separating any group of people working together (a company, an OSS project, whatever) and politics.

I understood that, I just think your arguments are bad.

> There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too.

Of course there is and such a decision is not about general politics or highly political. It's a bit like saying forbidding smoking on school grounds will never make it go away so we should just let the kids smoke. In fact, I would argue that Rust already has a lot of political rules in the code of conduct.

Even if people will break the rules there is still value in creating such rules but that will obviously only work as long as the people making the rules also abide by them which is not the case in the Rust community (among many others). It's obvious that certain political views are prohibited while others are welcome.

I guess what I am disappointed in is the constant double standards. They can have "black lives matters" on their webpage but if I were to link to a anti-trans movement (just making an example) on their discord it wouldn't take long until I'm banned. Anti trans movements and black lives matter has nothing to do with most development projects, thus none should be pushed on their websites.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#322
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about effective advocacy. Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate. And from an advocacy position, ideological purity almost never works. An advocacy organisation like the FSF should be pragmatically "climbing the ladder" one step at a time, not insisting on an instantaneous revolution. You might as well advocate for the moon to be painted blue: it's just…

Unfortunately I don't even believe Stallman is as ideologically pure as people like too believe he is. I think he is much more attached to his own ideas and realisations than he is to the overarching idea of software freedom. And to support that argument I bring three anecdotes. 1. He is much more attached to his own creation, the GPL, as a tool for driving software freedom and as a "hack" on top of copyright. As suc…

how would an LAGPL work? I'm sure it's my limitation, but I fail to understand the space in which it would be useful.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#323
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about effective advocacy. Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate. And from an advocacy position, ideological purity almost never works. An advocacy organisation like the FSF should be pragmatically "climbing the ladder" one step at a time, not insisting on an instantaneous revolution. You might as well advocate for the moon to be painted blue: it's just…

Unfortunately I don't even believe Stallman is as ideologically pure as people like too believe he is. I think he is much more attached to his own ideas and realisations than he is to the overarching idea of software freedom. And to support that argument I bring three anecdotes. 1. He is much more attached to his own creation, the GPL, as a tool for driving software freedom and as a "hack" on top of copyright. As suc…

Re: microcode you're so right. The Librem 5 phone is expected to be certified as respecting your freedom by FSF, but the Pinephone is not. Both use proprietary firmware, but because the Librem 5 loads the firmware from a chip that can't be updated by the host CPU, then that's apparently okay. Pinephone simply loads it from /lib/firmware

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#324
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

c. 3 commits per day from one contributor? That's dead, compared to Libreoffice that has dozens per day from multiple contributors.

By that logic, projects like the Bohem GC is dead with only one full time maintainer. https://github.com/ivmai/bdwgc

If that were a project that needs to change as much as a full office suite, then yeah. It's not so much the absolute numbers as much as the relative numbers when compared with the amount of activity in Libreoffice.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#325
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about effective advocacy. Stallman can think or do whatever he wants, but he is not and has never been an effective advocate. And from an advocacy position, ideological purity almost never works. An advocacy organisation like the FSF should be pragmatically "climbing the ladder" one step at a time, not insisting on an instantaneous revolution. You might as well advocate for the moon to be painted blue: it's just…

I disagree. The proposition of source being delivered with any software is indeed unrealistic, but not a bad starting point. For software that is funded publically these requirements could be realistic for example. Consumers won't demand it of course, but especially when software goes out of maintenance, it would be a huge help to get the source. Unrealistic with copyright protections, but I see the new gang of quest…

"Source delivered" can mean many different things though. Stallman's position is essentially that the source must be delivered in a way that respects the four freedoms and any compromise on that is "unethical" and not worth pursuing. My position is that we should start with just having access to the source under any terms, no matter how restrictive, and then move from there.

> I didn't downvote you

Just to clarify: I wouldn't mind if you did. It was just an observation about the knee-jerk response from someone who clearly hasn't even bothered to read the comment.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#326
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Not really. How do you imagine this could work if it was true? It's a great excuse if you're looking to throw your weight around of course. Oh the poor Disney corporation had to sue that primary school for a bajillion dollars, or else they would lose their trademark. Does that sort of thing even pass the sniff test for you? And it works out great for lawyers too. Ins…

Sadly that's indeed how trademark law works - if you don't make even a token effort at enforcing your rights, they can become common names and effectively be lost. That doesn't mean one should rabidly go after every single possible infringing use, obviously, which is what the infamous drafted Rust policy kinda did. It's one of those things that are just not black and white, because laws say one thing ("be harsh all o…

EFF has some good writing on the subject: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/11/trademark-law-does-not...

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#327
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've met and hung out quite a bit with Stallman (as part of a conference organizers group) in the early 2000s and he wasn't the most self aware person when it came to social situations. He is very socially awkward. Everything I've read so far has seemed plausible, although I would also agree that it seems to be blown out of proportion. He is one of the kindest persons I've met, very idealistic, and a captivating pers…

Do they still use the term socially awkward to describe nerdy people who work in IT? I thought it was quite on point, at least back in the days.

I'm not sure tbh (English being my second language), but I guess I would? I mean, we were all very young and very nerdy and thought it was pretty cool to be having dinner with RMS himself. Still, by our nerdy standards, he stood out as being a bit awkward – perhaps partly due to the language and cultural differences (even though he spoke pretty decent Spanish).

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#328
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing one of them should have exclusive right to use the word "mumble" in reference to software related to vocal communication?

Yes, one of them should have the right to use that logo and name for VoIP, absolutely. There are plenty of names everyone can pick that don't namesquat on an existing project. I find it especially nasty if it's a FOSS project that gets its name abused.

I'm not sure if people who don't double check the URL are the same people who would memorize or compare logos on a site... (which is in no way a defense of what's happening, but I don't think the other thing would help either)

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#329
post #152

I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and somet…

cue node.js - io.js and gcc - egcs

Or the short lived "@ lang", a fork of typescript or javascript (I believe) that added annotations because the Angular developers really wanted annotations. I can't even find any information about it anymore, maybe my google skills are failing.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36108633 [1] Guess who's the common denominator here? Yup. JeanHeyd. Such a small world. [1] https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235124.html

Yea, it's good to see someone consistently pushing back against hate and refusing to give up or be silenced.

That's a funny definition of "hate" you have there.
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