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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#161

Post by tialaramex »

hurril wrote: post #85
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

No, what is happening is a storm in a glass of water. _This_ is what is hurting the language and the environment. You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Having a late change to a conference is definitely bad and sad but there is simply no need for that to imply a rage quit and all this drama. That is a non-sequiteur. Suck it up, make the talk on youtube (or somewhere else); I'm sure there are lots of people…

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them.

Not really. How do you imagine this could work if it was true? It's a great excuse if you're looking to throw your weight around of course. Oh the poor Disney corporation had to sue that primary school for a bajillion dollars, or else they would lose their trademark. Does that sort of thing even pass the sniff test for you?

And it works out great for lawyers too. Instead of only getting paid when there's actual controversy that needs their skills, they can collect a fee for this "protection" work.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#162

Post by oefrha »

dijit wrote: post #145
oefrha wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you are trying to convey. There are a ton of IRC hosts out there and they are all interchangeable. A real language fork is not interchangeable, even a different implementation of the same language is going to have its subtle compatibility problems. People pay the price for tangible benefits like performance or portability. You don’t need to use a fork and pay the technical price for it if the only benef…

Its an example of a wildly successful fork due to poor leadership, without any other technical reasons. You can argue that “its different because its a community” but thats dishonest, because ultimately migrating an entire community is much harder than having an alternative development stream like MariaDB and MySQL. Oh, wait, another successful fork…

IRC is practically stateless, migrating is about as easy as someone signing up at the new host and changing your readme/contact page. If you have some bots you change some URLs. It may not be an easy decision, but the migration is a straightforward one time cost. Guess why a lot of projects moved off Freenode overnight? Because it’s very easy.

Supporting a different language implementation, on the other hand, is an indefinite ongoing burden until one dies. Not to mention the trademark bullshit affects a tiny slice of the user base at best.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#163

Post by detourdog »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #97
pydry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesnt seem to be liked by some of the more powerful, corporate entities in tech, probably because he pushes some agendas that are somewhat anti-their-profits. I think this was behind the rather unsuccessful attempts to cancel him a few years ago, which cast a shadow over his reputation.

I heard Stallman speak once about FOSS. He struck me as a very interesting person, but not very flexible in his views. Even if he's 100% "right" in the long run about how digital products should be completely free, his views are so polarizing that it'd be hard to interact with him long enough to understand his positions.

Idealism retards the growth of most good ideas. I suffer this daily but it is an internal struggle and I structure my idealism to minimize the impact on others.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#164

Post by hurril »

jakear wrote: post #149
hurril wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think they would care if you started a company named Oracle?

Conflating product names with legal company names does nothing to help the discussion. The fact of the matter is I can have a business called https://learnjavascript.online/ but not one called https://learnrust.online/ , because the Rust team has decided they are uniquely suited to govern all usage of the word "rust" as their dumb little users can't manage to think for themselves and determine which resources are wor…

They are trademarks, though, are they not?

Should I be permitted to fork Go an call it Rust? learnrust.com with fine resources to learn ru.. I mean go, no wait. Rust. Definitely rust.

I am a user of Rust and I am neither dumb nor little, but thank you for your kind consideration of my mental abilities. But I think you are the one missing the point here: it has to do with the stability of the brand, language and environment; I've invested a lot of hours into this and will continue to do so. Without the protection I would not because it could be gone tomorrow, basically.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#165

Post by detourdog »

tombert wrote: post #131
devoutsalsa wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard Stallman speak once about FOSS. He struck me as a very interesting person, but not very flexible in his views. Even if he's 100% "right" in the long run about how digital products should be completely free, his views are so polarizing that it'd be hard to interact with him long enough to understand his positions.

I think there is value in people like Stallman existing. I disagree with him in a lot of regards, but I think it's important for people like him to shift the "Overton Window" of software copyright a bit closer to FOSS. He's a disagreeable bastard, I'm not even sure he would dispute that, but a part of me does respect the dedication to the cause. That said, I almost always use BSD or MIT licenses for my personal stuff…

That captures my sentiment exactly and GPL is always the last choice for me.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#166

Post by jakear »

Avamander wrote: post #138
jakear wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Let them be lost, who cares? It's not even a novel name, they just co-opted an existing word for their little gang and now don't want anyone else to use it. Even Oracle, the chief lawyer-assholes of the industry, have basically given up on trying to own "JavaScript", and that at least is a uniquely derived term.

> Let them be lost, who cares? Users who don't want malware/abandonware. See more: Mumble.com and Mumble.info

You're arguing one of them should have exclusive right to use the word "mumble" in reference to software related to vocal communication?

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#167

Post by toyg »

arp242 wrote: post #122
pietro72ohboy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief…

I wrote about this a few years ago in [1]. I think some of the more recent personal attacks have been unfair and misguided, but criticism of Stallman goes back decades. Why does X use the MIT license and not GPL? Because they found Stallman too difficult to talk to (see quote in the article). Many prominent people involved in Free Software have been at odds with Stallman for a long time. When I first heard of Stallma…

> A wiser and less ego-centric Stallman would have stepped back decades ago.

I don't agree. For all his limits, Stallman maintained an ideological purity that is required to firmly signpost one end of the Overton window. Opensource licenses and projects can mix and match rights and regulations, but you will always have an unwatered GPL option, there to remind people of what the original ideal looked like.

Compare the trajectory of the GNU project with that of Mozilla, for example. Mozilla compromised ideals to gain popularity, and now that popularity is waning the compromise gets worse and worse (pocket, pop-unders...). GNU compromised nothing, ignored ebbs and flows in popularity, and will continue to do their thankless work for the good of the community at large.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#168

Post by unconed »

jakear wrote: post #130
unconed wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name a few of these luminaries to see what we've lost? Most of what I've heard about Stallman are social attacks from autistic mean girls with zero self awareness. Edit: FYI, people have flagged my follow up comment where I address the request for clarification to make it look like there is none. Just turn on showdead in your HN options to see. This is exactly the kind of playbook they love to use. Manipulati…

Quite extreme words to provide no reference supporting them.

[flagged]

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#169

Post by jakear »

hurril wrote: post #164
jakear wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conflating product names with legal company names does nothing to help the discussion. The fact of the matter is I can have a business called https://learnjavascript.online/ but not one called https://learnrust.online/ , because the Rust team has decided they are uniquely suited to govern all usage of the word "rust" as their dumb little users can't manage to think for themselves and determine which resources are wor…

They are trademarks, though, are they not? Should I be permitted to fork Go an call it Rust? learnrust.com with fine resources to learn ru.. I mean go, no wait. Rust. Definitely rust. I am a user of Rust and I am neither dumb nor little, but thank you for your kind consideration of my mental abilities. But I think you are the one missing the point here: it has to do with the stability of the brand, language and envir…

It's the Rust foundation that considers it's users dumb and little, unable to think for themselves and determine which resources are worth using. How could you in good faith read what I said and come away thinking I support controlling the availability of resources named rust?

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#170

Post by hurril »

tialaramex wrote: post #161
hurril wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what is happening is a storm in a glass of water. _This_ is what is hurting the language and the environment. You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Having a late change to a conference is definitely bad and sad but there is simply no need for that to imply a rage quit and all this drama. That is a non-sequiteur. Suck it up, make the talk on youtube (or somewhere else); I'm sure there are lots of people…

> You have to protect trademarks or you lose them. Not really. How do you imagine this could work if it was true? It's a great excuse if you're looking to throw your weight around of course. Oh the poor Disney corporation had to sue that primary school for a bajillion dollars, or else they would lose their trademark. Does that sort of thing even pass the sniff test for you? And it works out great for lawyers too. Ins…

Are you asking me to defend Disney's actions because I side with Rust at this point?

I think that it is fair that someone defends their name and brand and I definitely wish that you be permitted to do so, so that someone is unable to be too untoward to your business.

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