Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists • Hacker News Board

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#61

Post by iheartwireguard » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

cauch wrote: post #45

photochemsyn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure 'chemtrail conspiracies' have their origin in the (quite real) large-scale biological & radiological warfare tests the US government conducted in the 1950s and 1960s: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/weapon-... > "The first Large Area Concept experiment, in 1957, involved dispersing microorganisms over a swath from South Dakota to Minnesota; monitoring revealed that some of the par…

But the fact that the conspiracy is true or not is irrelevant. The problem of the "conspiracy theory" is that it is a witch trial: a group of people have absolutely no proof what-so-ever, they just "want to believe they are right". It does not matter if they end up being right, their logic is toxic for society, and if we are accepting their logic, then it means that tomorrow you can be fired from your job because you…

"a group of people have absolutely no proof what-so-ever"

Something not being provable underlies the definition of the term theory, Google this phrase, "is it required for a theory to have proof" to understand.

"It does not matter if they end up being right"

This is not a logical stance.

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#62

Post by archsurface » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

ivan_gammel wrote: post #27

RobotToaster wrote: post #23

Mainstream press never really looks at the deeper causes of why these conspiracies exist in the first place. Looking at it dialectically, at least one possibility seems quite simple. Thesis: The government wants to make laws that attack workers, to make them pay for stopping climate change (that was primarily caused by corporations and their wealthy owners.) Antithesis: Workers don't want to be attacked. Synthesis: S…

Conspiracy of meteorologists suppported by the government to scare workers by the weather… do you seriously consider this a possibility? How about Ockham’s razor and much simpler explanation that the weather is actually changing?

Weapons of mass destruction? Governments lie. Politicians don't stop lying. Look up a video of British politician Matt Hancock "crying" about covid - it's brazen. I understand why people push back; I don't believe a word that comes out of governments. To what degree (ahem) are the meteorologists at fault? I don't know, but I'm reminded of Neil Ferguson whose models were news here on HN and elsewhere. Scientists get grants just as politicians get lobbied. Trust is hard won, and you don't get it by forcing 15 minute cities on people while private jets are free to fly.

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#63

Post by imoverclocked » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:26 PM UTC

ivan_gammel wrote: post #35

GenerocUsername wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't say the weather isnt changing, he said the proposed solutions misplace the blame and spread the burdon of solutions disproportionatly from the source of the problem.

I do not really understand that “misplacing of the blame”. It’s an ordinary Joe who buys a car and a fuel for it. It is an ordinary Joe who hunts for cheap airline tickets and buys all those tiny things that are shipped overseas. The same Joe votes for politicians that deregulate and offer tax reductions and binges Netflix instead of reading some good books. Ignorance is a choice of majority of population. Ten billio…

Your lines drawn are odd to me. Billionaires are regular Joes but with a lot more influence and buying power. Instead of the plane ticket for a week vacation, it’s a rocket program to get one ride to space.

A single rocket launch is easily the equivalent of 10 average Americans yearly co2 production. There are hundreds (thousands?) of people employed to make the things go, all of which has its own carbon footprint. There are many rockets launched and engine tests in the development of a rocket program. In 2022 SpaceX launched 180 successful rockets. Without private jets and carbon emissions of other business practices, we are already at a multiplier of over a thousand for a single billionaire. Ten billionaires produce a small towns worth of co2 (again, without private jets and extended effects of their business models)

When we look at the average Joe who can not afford to live close to work or buy an electric vehicle, it gets even harder to try and say, “The problem is created by you and needs to be solved by you.”

The problem is all of ours. You, the reader of this comment and me, the writer, are both part of the problem and solution. People with a lot of influence that control information are huge multipliers in solving or prolonging the problem. That is why huge corporations shifting the blame and disrupting the truth is such an issue.

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#64

Post by croes » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

128bytes wrote: post #53

croes wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thesis: Governments want to make laws to stop climate change Antithesis: Big corporation don't want to lose money, pay people to create disinformation campaign, claiming all is a ruse to get money from the workers and enforce woke lifestyles like veganism onto them. Synthesis: Some people believe them and attack scientists and politicians who actually try to safe mankind's environment

This analysis is silly because it neglects the fact that the poor are disproportionally reliant on polluting infrastructure that does not have any safe and affordable alternative, while also being those most affected by its dangers. Big corporations have ways to make lots of money from so called 'green technology' and they have the capital to diversify into it and they do, poor people do not. People want to act like…

Pretty short sighted analysis of my post.

The companies I'm talking about do this since more than 50 years, that's why the infrastructure wasn't changed when the costs would have been lower because there was more time This changed would have benefited the poor too.

Now the time is running out and they choices are they suffer now because of higher costs or suffer later from the effects of climate change. They are the victims one way or the other.

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#65

Post by VagueMag » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

netsharc wrote: post #51

wefarrell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers in developed countries have benefited from environmental exploitation. We can travel hundreds or miles in comfortable cars, or thousands of miles in a day in planes. We can enjoy bananas and other tropical fruit in northern latitudes in the winter. We can live in relatively large spaces that are heated. It’s the workers in developing countries who are lying the price. They’re the ones who are being told they…

There's always a richer class who people can be mad about. The incredibly well-off average Westerners (compared to factory workers in e.g. Bangladesh) then look at the CEOs and super-rich who fly on private planes and vacation on yachts and say "Look at those CEOs, profiteering off exploiting our hard work!" -- it doesn't mean they don't have a case, just look at Bezos and the average Amazon warehouse worker.

> There's always a richer class who people can be mad about.

I mean, not for one class in particular, right? One which happens to be making a whole lot of noise about this issue while not volunteering to make any sacrifices on its own part to fix it?

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#66

Post by cauch » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

iheartwireguard wrote: post #61

cauch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the fact that the conspiracy is true or not is irrelevant. The problem of the "conspiracy theory" is that it is a witch trial: a group of people have absolutely no proof what-so-ever, they just "want to believe they are right". It does not matter if they end up being right, their logic is toxic for society, and if we are accepting their logic, then it means that tomorrow you can be fired from your job because you…

"a group of people have absolutely no proof what-so-ever" Something not being provable underlies the definition of the term theory, Google this phrase, "is it required for a theory to have proof" to understand. "It does not matter if they end up being right" This is not a logical stance.

They have a "theory", no proof. My point is that a healthy society should not rely on "theory" to destroy other people's life, to bully them or to make societal decisions, especially if there are processes that can go further than just theory.

And, yes, it does not matter if they end up being right, the same way it does not matter if a broken clock end up being right: it is still a very very unethical and unfair way of managing a society. I can throw knives from the top of my building, and sometimes I will hit someone that deserve it. According to your logic, it's fine.

On top of that, if you learn they end up being right, it means that someone else came up with the proof, demonstrating that they were utterly useless: their "belief" did not change anything, because the proof would have appeared anyway. All they have done is being counter-productive and delayed the discovery of the proof (and sometimes ruining it totally).

It's a bit like bad cops that "get the bad guy" by breaking the rules and end up with the bad guy being released due to breach of procedure. It's just totally stupid: if they believe there is a problem, they investigate and bring proofs upfront, not start accusing without proofs.

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#67

Post by pixl97 » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:33 PM UTC

whitemary wrote: post #52

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #39

Given these people's response it seems rising oceans, droughts and extreme weather are not the main dangers of global warming, but instead the hordes of the mentally untethered looking for someone to blame for what they've warned about for years.

Maybe if the media wasn't effectively an appendage of the state and transparently lying on a regular basis, citizens would be a lot less vulnerable to bullshit.

And by state, you mean corporations, right?

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#68

Post by tonetheman » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:36 PM UTC

olivermarks wrote: post #31

eesmith wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that dismisses people's concerns. What are those concerns? That most airlines spray chemicals that keep rain from falling on Spain? There's no reason to believe that's true. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory . Or concerns that governments aren't doing enough to prevent increased global warming? Or concerns that there's a conspiracy to promote the false story about global warming? Or…

Sadly Wikipedia has now lost all credibility, and is not a credible resource for anything even vaguely controversial. Many people think 'global warming' (or 'climate change' as it now called) is 80% snake oil and that there are many alarmist evangelizing grifters making a fortune and changing the global balance of power in its name. This is another failed example of 'trust me I'm a scientist' that has lost a large se…

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Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#69

Post by im3w1l » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

cauch wrote: post #45

photochemsyn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure 'chemtrail conspiracies' have their origin in the (quite real) large-scale biological & radiological warfare tests the US government conducted in the 1950s and 1960s: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/weapon-... > "The first Large Area Concept experiment, in 1957, involved dispersing microorganisms over a swath from South Dakota to Minnesota; monitoring revealed that some of the par…

But the fact that the conspiracy is true or not is irrelevant. The problem of the "conspiracy theory" is that it is a witch trial: a group of people have absolutely no proof what-so-ever, they just "want to believe they are right". It does not matter if they end up being right, their logic is toxic for society, and if we are accepting their logic, then it means that tomorrow you can be fired from your job because you…

A lot of conspiracy theorists are not like that. They are more like "My neighbor is behaving suspiciously. I have no concrete proof of wrong doing, but maybe I should start bolting my door".

Re: Meteorologists face unprecedented harassment from conspiracy theorists

#70

Post by tjpnz » Sat, May 27, 2023, 4:56 PM UTC

RobotToaster wrote: post #23

Mainstream press never really looks at the deeper causes of why these conspiracies exist in the first place. Looking at it dialectically, at least one possibility seems quite simple. Thesis: The government wants to make laws that attack workers, to make them pay for stopping climate change (that was primarily caused by corporations and their wealthy owners.) Antithesis: Workers don't want to be attacked. Synthesis: S…

>Synthesis: Some workers deny the existence of what the government says they want to make them pay for.

Wouldn't it involve less in the way of mental gymnastics to simply say they don't want to be left holding the bag?