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Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

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Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#81

Post by emodendroket »

stakhanov wrote: post #35
emodendroket wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your approach is personal insult then I can see why it isn’t that well received. To answer your question, though, I was saying I feel I have had success raising disagreements and didn’t ask for or particularly want to read something explaining to me why I should ignore over a decade of my own experience. Hey maybe I’m just really dull like you suggest.

If you really want to call in the tone police on this: My initial comment was reacting to the article saying "This doesn't match my experience" in which I've simultaneously made myself vulnerable to ad-hominem attack because it was implying that my career wasn't going so well. And your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of pe…

I didn’t say any of that and that was just one illustrative example of how your method of delivery can have a big influence on whether your suggestions are received as well intentioned or hostile. If you are this prone to seeing attempts to offend you where none are there and responding in kind then I do think we’ve found the root of your problem.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#82

Post by emodendroket »

stakhanov wrote: post #58
Nashooo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the way the disagreements are voiced and handled by the disagreer matter a lot in which of those two responses you would receive. Also, I think it would matter a lot on how X vs Y turned out later. I.e. the difference between always disagreeing but also always getting it wrong. Or sometimes disagreeing but then getting it right and handling being right gracefully. In my experience "shut your mouth and do as y…

> how X vs Y turned out There's a cool idea that's related to that which also comes up in Ray Dalio's "Principles", which is to keep a log and do some kind of bean counting on who turns out to be right vs. wrong in situations of disagreements. The idea is that people who frequently turn out to be right should be given more influence. It's also a question that has been on my mind a lot in reflecting upon my career. My…

> People who disagree just for the sake of disagreeing are, in my mind, a myth, especially in the workplace where the stakes are high and disagreement tends to go hand-in-hand with conflict and power struggle and is therefore uncomfortable territory. Nobody would put themselves through that discomfort for nothing.

Maybe so, but the persistence of this myth among people who work suggests my original point about the delivery of the message as important has some truth to it, as some people are perceived this way.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#83

Post by 2devnull »

tyingq wrote: post #67
aardvark179 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR is not your friend, but to say they are your enemy is overly reductive. The job of HR is to protect the company, which often means ensuring things are done by the book, or that enough compensation is given that it is better to take the money than argue. They aren't your friend, but they aren't your bosses friend either, and if your boss is trying to do something that will get the company in trouble then you may fi…

That's true, though I think statistically, the higher up the food chain you are, the more likely HR is going to be your friend. Leadership tends to band together and influence HR policy to favor managers over do-ers.

I feel like a lot of people I’ve known who work in HR are very much into the high school popular kids clique mentality. Not all. I’ve known very wonderful souls who work in HR but it attracts “people person” types who seem to thrive on gossip and secret communications not unlike a bunch of high school girls.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#84

Post by Cheezmeister »

emodendroket wrote: post #21
anonylizard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, liberal arts is valuable, but the degree isn't. I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc. The problem with the actual degree. 1. Liberal arts degrees have terrible economic returns, almost always negative, especially for men. Because... 2. Liberal arts is ill-suited for mass-market higher education. Can you really teach liberal arts with underpaid teach assistant…

> The degree introduces indoctrination. I have yet to hear a principled distinction between "education" and "indoctrination" that doesn't boil down to whether the speaker agrees with the content being taught.

LMGPTTFY

> Me: What is the etymology of "education"? > ChatGPT: The word "education" comes from the Latin word "educare," which means "to bring up" or "to rear." "Educare" is derived from another Latin word, "educere," which means "to lead out" or "to draw out." The concept behind "education" is closely tied to the idea of drawing out or developing the inherent abilities, talents, and knowledge within an individual. Over time, the term "education" has come to encompass the process of teaching, training, and nurturing someone's intellectual, moral, and social growth.

> Me: What is the etymology of "indoctrination"? > ChatGPT: The word "indoctrination" has its roots in the Latin language. It is derived from two Latin words: "in" and "doctrina." > The prefix "in" in Latin often denotes "into" or "inward." The word "doctrina" in Latin means "teaching" or "instruction." > When combined, "in" and "doctrina" form the Latin verb "indoctrinare," which means "to teach" or "to instruct." Over time, "indoctrination" has taken on a more specific connotation, referring to the process of imparting beliefs, ideas, or a particular ideology to someone, often in a forceful or uncritical manner. > It's worth noting that while "education" generally refers to a broader process of learning and intellectual development, "indoctrination" carries the notion of teaching in a way that is heavily influenced by a specific agenda or set of beliefs.

Education is showing a customer the door, or if you like leading the horse to water. Indoctrination is frogmarching the prisoner, or drowning the horse.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#85

Post by kqr »

stakhanov wrote: post #72
pydry wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly culturally dependent too. I found that in Singapore nobody with authority tolerated it, whereas authority in the US and UK was more tolerant. Even more than culture and the nature of the boss, though, I think how many other people hear of the criticism. The optimal number is 0. Bosses who don't have anything to prove tend to be more receptive, too. Vint squarely falls in that category. I'm not sure he'd b…

> It's highly culturally dependent too. I found that in Singapore nobody with authority tolerated it, whereas authority in the US and UK was more tolerant. That's interesting. I think I would actually do better in such a culture. I actually have no problem at all respecting "chain of command" if that's part of some body of rules that are clearly stated or at least culturally implied. What I tend to have a problem wit…

> ideas for companies, geographies, social spheres and such, where strong hierarchies and little politics and psychological-level human manipulation is part of the culture

Where there are humans, there is politics and psychological manipulation. In strong bureaucracies, this happens at the level of dictating what the rules are and how they should be interpreted, as well as in squabbling over titles and fiefdoms, instead of in each interaction around the actual work and resource allocation. So in some sense, it's actually worse!

----

Unrelated to the observation above, I struggle squaring the idea of a pacifist that prefers hierarchies of dominance, since they're almost always founded on a thickly veiled threat of violence. (Even in a strict bureaucracy, you can hear the walls whisper "fill this form, or else...")

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#86

Post by emodendroket »

FredPret wrote: post #64
VampireDentist wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Republicans have made hostility to universities, or at least the non-engineering parts of them, a plank for as long I can remember. Recently, Ron DeSantis led a high-profile effort to take over the New College as part of his audition for President. Like everyone else, professors are capable of understanding that they have interests aligned with different political positions.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#87

Post by emodendroket »

Cheezmeister wrote: post #84
emodendroket wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The degree introduces indoctrination. I have yet to hear a principled distinction between "education" and "indoctrination" that doesn't boil down to whether the speaker agrees with the content being taught.

LMGPTTFY > Me: What is the etymology of "education"? > ChatGPT: The word "education" comes from the Latin word "educare," which means "to bring up" or "to rear." "Educare" is derived from another Latin word, "educere," which means "to lead out" or "to draw out." The concept behind "education" is closely tied to the idea of drawing out or developing the inherent abilities, talents, and knowledge within an individual.…

Let ChatGPT know that arguing from etymology is an exceptionally weak technique that typically yields quite limited insight.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#88

Post by stakhanov »

pydry wrote: post #76
stakhanov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's highly culturally dependent too. I found that in Singapore nobody with authority tolerated it, whereas authority in the US and UK was more tolerant. That's interesting. I think I would actually do better in such a culture. I actually have no problem at all respecting "chain of command" if that's part of some body of rules that are clearly stated or at least culturally implied. What I tend to have a problem wit…

They'd still protest that they're open to criticism of course. There were, if anything, more idiotic mind games centered around enforcing power structures. There was a rigid implied racial hierarchy too. You're asking for a geographical location or a company where humans dont act human. I dont think it exists.

> There were, if anything, more idiotic mind games centered around enforcing power structures. There was a rigid implied racial hierarchy too.

Oh, I misunderstood you then.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#89

Post by stronglikedan »

stakhanov wrote: post #19

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

Weird take. I tell all my employees this, and they teach me a lot in return. Same goes for my relationship with my boss. Maybe it's the way you've interacted with them in the past that has jaded you? It helps to be tactful.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#90

Post by HeckFeck »

coldtea wrote: post #59
stakhanov wrote: post #19

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

And the worse are often those that brag about how "open to criticism" they are. It's a trap for literally-minded/low-EQ people. There are those that are indeed open to criticism, but those are almost never the one's that are gonna tell you about how open they are. Rather they are the ones that will actively engage in such discussions and technical arguments with you, and even enjoy it. You wont be "invited to critici…

> It's a trap for literally-minded/low-EQ people.

So many things in everyday communication are just this. Sometimes I think politeness is overrated: 'Maybe later' when you mean 'never' still confuses me. You can let someone down gently whilst being unambiguous.

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