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Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

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Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#31

Post by inglor_cz »

stakhanov wrote: post #26
emodendroket wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess theoretically I could have had a career that's gone even better than the one I have had, but I haven't had any real problems with my approach so I think I'll stick with it.

Were you trying to say "My success proves me right"? Because the other reading is: You're not good at independent thinking, therefore you've never had those independent thoughts that made your bosses dislike you, and that explains why you had a good career. So, your success proves me right. Now enter into some introspection. Do you dislike me, now that I've suggested this? Or do I get brownie points from you for bein…

I am not the OP, I am not your boss, we are not even in total disagreement, and yet your short comment already rubs me the wrong way.

Maybe your streak of bad results isn't a result of disagreement per se, but of your attitude. If you usually present your disagreement in the same way that you wrote this comment, the I-Win-You-Lose attitude is a good way to needlessly alienate other people.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#32

Post by jerrre »

stakhanov wrote: post #15

This career advice sounds more like what someone would say who asked themselves "Hmm... What sort of career advice would make me look good if I gave it?" It having anything to do with his actual experiences, beliefs, and opinions seems kind of optional.

Interesting way of looking at it, and I actually think it applies to a lot of advice.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#33

Post by harry8 »

stakhanov wrote: post #19

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

Also, sadly:

"HR is your enemy. The role of HR is to protect the CEO and his team when they do something unspeakable and to smooth the way when firing people."

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#34

Post by sph »

grose wrote: post #8

What’s up with the sol.int email addresses on the whiteboard? Seems to be related to IPN/DTN but I can’t find anything concrete on the naming scheme.

Yeah it looks like some planning and brainstorming for some kind of interplanetary and galactic DNS scheme. Pretty cool, though it needs another TLD than .int, which is already used for international entities.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#35

Post by stakhanov »

emodendroket wrote: post #28
stakhanov wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you trying to say "My success proves me right"? Because the other reading is: You're not good at independent thinking, therefore you've never had those independent thoughts that made your bosses dislike you, and that explains why you had a good career. So, your success proves me right. Now enter into some introspection. Do you dislike me, now that I've suggested this? Or do I get brownie points from you for bein…

If your approach is personal insult then I can see why it isn’t that well received. To answer your question, though, I was saying I feel I have had success raising disagreements and didn’t ask for or particularly want to read something explaining to me why I should ignore over a decade of my own experience. Hey maybe I’m just really dull like you suggest.

If you really want to call in the tone police on this: My initial comment was reacting to the article saying "This doesn't match my experience" in which I've simultaneously made myself vulnerable to ad-hominem attack because it was implying that my career wasn't going so well. And your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of person who has experience X, you're probably the sort of person who would make mistake Y." What do you know about whether I use one-on-ones for voicing disagreements with my bosses versus making them look bad in public?

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#36

Post by precompute »

stakhanov wrote: post #23
emodendroket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends a lot on your approach. Raising some concerns in a one-on-one and allowing them to change course or not will go over better than just shooting their idea down in a big meeting with many people.

I've tried many times, with many different approaches and many different people over the course of a 20-year career. The variation in outcomes was absolutely zero. To anyone who wants to believe that bosses are fundamentally capable of tolerating independent thought among their underlings, I would recommend the book "Disciplined Minds" by Jeff Schmidt [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Disciplined-Minds-Critical-Profess…

Yes, bosses, in the end, don't really care. They'll "appreciate" it in their minds (in the manner of a process being completed) but then not do anything with it, because that's not their job. They exist to create confusion and order from it and anyone honest enough to be a Good boss is quickly dethroned.

Thanks for the book recommendation!

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#37

Post by ggm »

emodendroket wrote: post #22
FredPret wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then most liberal arts educations are not well-taught. Look at the uniform political slant of everything coming out of the liberal arts sphere in the past 50+ years. There's a ton of value in a good liberal arts education, but I agree with anonylizard that this is not something that can be taught en masse.

I am not sure I see a "uniform political slant." People in the many fields that comprise liberal arts find many things to disagree with each other about, sometimes quite vehemently.

I've got to say the thread which leads here confirms my original comment, your remarks aside.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#38

Post by _a_a_a_ »

stakhanov wrote: post #15

This career advice sounds more like what someone would say who asked themselves "Hmm... What sort of career advice would make me look good if I gave it?" It having anything to do with his actual experiences, beliefs, and opinions seems kind of optional.

I can't see anything that would remotely justify that. Looks like excellent advice all round. HN cynicism again I guess.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#39

Post by _a_a_a_ »

stakhanov wrote: post #19

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

It works with good bosses. You will know pretty quickly if they're good by how they act. I've told good bosses what they need to hear and it's gone down well. Mind, the good ones are not common; the bad do predominate.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#40

Post by FredPret »

emodendroket wrote: post #22
FredPret wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then most liberal arts educations are not well-taught. Look at the uniform political slant of everything coming out of the liberal arts sphere in the past 50+ years. There's a ton of value in a good liberal arts education, but I agree with anonylizard that this is not something that can be taught en masse.

I am not sure I see a "uniform political slant." People in the many fields that comprise liberal arts find many things to disagree with each other about, sometimes quite vehemently.

You're either not serious or you're so deep in the bubble you can't see the edges.

Close to 100% of liberal arts teaching staff are Democrats [1] [2] [3]. It didn't use to be this way [4] [5].

[1] https://www.pacificresearch.org/why-are-teachers-mostly-libe...

[2] https://www.thecollegefix.com/zero-republican-professors/

[3] https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/partisan-registration-and-...

[4] https://nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-disappea...

[5] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/05/06/ju...

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