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Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

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Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#121

Post by HDThoreaun »

alexb_ wrote: post #101
harimau777 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far does that line of reasoning go? Suppose that every car they sold used the same key. "We just said that the car has locks. We didn't say that those locks have unique keys." Clearly there has to be some degree to which a customer can assume that a product they buy meets the standard functionality associated with that product.

Then they still wouldn't be at fault. It's not their fault that the society Baltimore has crafted is so low trust that you can't leave your car outside for a second without it getting stolen.

It's their fault they made a defective product though. When people buy a car the expectation is that you can't steal it in under 10 seconds with no tools.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#122

Post by bombcar »

taylodl wrote: post #110
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its a fundamentally flawed design, and it never should have made it past review. It is a flawed design, but there’s just one problem for a lawsuit: Immobilizers are not legally required in the US. A flawed immobilizer is fine, considering there doesn’t even need to be an immobilizer. Baltimore is suing because, yes, they are easy to steal and that makes things inconvenient for Baltimore. But no law was broken - the…

The product sold doesn't comply with the stated fit of purpose. A consumer has the reasonable expectation that an ignition switch will hamper the efforts of someone to steal their car. There are lots of consumer protection laws that can be applied here - up to fraud. I suspect Baltimore isn't as interested in the the money to be gained as they are in generating negative PR for KIA and thus forcing them to address the…

Wouldn't' that be the customers suing, or something? Baltimore didn't buy these cars, it might get dismissed from standing.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#123

Post by dang »

nemo44x wrote: post #51

[flagged]

Can you please stop posting flamebait? I don't want to ban you but I had to ask you this just recently (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35486328) and many times previously (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35090086).

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#124

Post by linksnapzz »

taylodl wrote: post #110
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its a fundamentally flawed design, and it never should have made it past review. It is a flawed design, but there’s just one problem for a lawsuit: Immobilizers are not legally required in the US. A flawed immobilizer is fine, considering there doesn’t even need to be an immobilizer. Baltimore is suing because, yes, they are easy to steal and that makes things inconvenient for Baltimore. But no law was broken - the…

The product sold doesn't comply with the stated fit of purpose. A consumer has the reasonable expectation that an ignition switch will hamper the efforts of someone to steal their car. There are lots of consumer protection laws that can be applied here - up to fraud. I suspect Baltimore isn't as interested in the the money to be gained as they are in generating negative PR for KIA and thus forcing them to address the…

That's not criminal, that's a tort.

Baltimore, not being the customer, probably lacks standing.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#127

Post by misterprime »

bombcar wrote: post #120
aardvarkr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a better analogy - imagine the atm manufacturer wanted to save money so they built a machine with a lock that could be pried off with a screwdriver instead of integrating security features inside the machine. This ATM would be about as trivially easy to break into as stealing a Kia/Hyundai is. Would the bank be right to pursue legal damages against the atm manufacturer for negligence?

The bank is the customer in that case, and you could argue that they could sue, based on "assumptions about contract" or whatever. Baltimore didn't buy these cars.

I'm curious if a class action lawsuit for Kia and Hyundai customers would make more sense.

I also wonder if auto insurance companies might refuse to insure Kia and Hyundai vehicles until this is fixed.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#128

Post by dwater »

klodolph wrote: post #55
aardvarkr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also worth noting that this was all started with a viral TikTok video showing Hire ridiculously easy it is to steal a Kia/Hyundai is. Here’s a collection of graphs showing the before and after of theft data in major cities. https://usafacts.org/data-projects/car-thefts

This echoes what happened in 2004 with Kryptonite locks and Bic pens. Someone figured out that you could open a Kryptonite lock using a Bic pen, which has roughly the same shape as a tubular lock key. You did not need to use the actual key or pick the lock. There was a rash of bike thefts afterwards. TikTok is a convenient scapegoat, but I think the problem would exist without TikTok, because it so closely echoes a s…

When that happened Kryptonite voluntarily created a free lock replacement program, where if you owned a tubular cylinder Kryptonite lock they replaced it for free, postage paid.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#129

Post by Arrath »

endisneigh wrote: post #117
krisoft wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you disagree that a car that's more reparable is more easily stolen? Yes,I do. > imagine a car with screws on the door to be swapped, and another car without them. you don't think the car with the screws would be easier to steal? I imagined that. Every car door I have ever interacted with had the screws on the hinges such that you could only access them with the door open. You could swap all of them. This is not a…

I don't know what to tell ya then. clearly and obviously, a door that can be taken off, and thus is more easily repaired, could be stolen easier than one that is not (e.g. door is welded after being attached to the car). if you disagree with that then we have to agree to disagree. > Thing is nobody is asking Kia to do something unprecedented. All people are asking to be about as safe from stealing as cars from other…

You are making some strange connections here.

You might as well argue that a car built to be human drivable is easier to steal since the human needs to be able to see the surroundings, and a car with glass windows is easier to break into than a steel box with some external camera and lidar modules.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#130

Post by endisneigh »

Arrath wrote: post #129
endisneigh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to tell ya then. clearly and obviously, a door that can be taken off, and thus is more easily repaired, could be stolen easier than one that is not (e.g. door is welded after being attached to the car). if you disagree with that then we have to agree to disagree. > Thing is nobody is asking Kia to do something unprecedented. All people are asking to be about as safe from stealing as cars from other…

You are making some strange connections here. You might as well argue that a car built to be human drivable is easier to steal since the human needs to be able to see the surroundings, and a car with glass windows is easier to break into than a steel box with some external camera and lidar modules.

Yes, that is true too, but the law says a car needs windows or similarly sized cavities. Within the minimum requirements for a steer legal car, more repair ability makes it easier to steal inherently.

Idk why people argue against this obvious fact. Things have trade offs and this is one of them. Of course you can design things to be repairable and minimize risk of theft, but if you didn’t care about that things could be even more accessible for modification if desired.

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