Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Let's End Adolescence

businessweek.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 167 posts

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#111

Post by olavk »

nir wrote: post #65
tomjen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that a low birth rate says anything about when people grow up. If it did, teenage mothers would be the most responsible people in society.

I mention it as example of adults who have priorities traditionally associated with younger people - the low birth rate in places like Germany or Italy partly comes from adults preferring a certain lifestyle (a better car, exotic vacations, living in fashionable=expensive neighborhoods etc) (I'm not judging this, btw, it's a valid choice.)

The reason for the low birth rates in eg. Italy is probably not primarily because people want cars and vacations, but rather that society is structured such that if a woman gets a child, she have to give up her career and become a housewife. Therefore many women defer having kids or choose not to have kids.

In Scandinavia birth rates are relatively higher - definitely not because Scandinavians don't like cars or vacations, but rather because the society makes it easier to have children and a job at the same time (e.g. kindergartens available and so on).

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#112

Post by gaius »

unalone wrote: post #105
gaius wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone's work is worth 100 units/time period but society spends 200 u/t to make them feel good about themselves, then that's a net loss. And this isn't just an academic point; a society that eats itself from inside like this can't last and will be replaced by something considerably less warm and fluffy.

You're assuming that by providing a "place in society" society is indeed trying to pull the wool over citizens' eyes. I think it's possible for a society to legitimately find good places for everybody to work without it being haberdashery. Just automate all of the pointless, frivolous tasks, and find more meaningful jobs for everybody.

The post I was replying to made the point that unskilled jobs should not be automated, but given to the "less able" to make them feel good about themselves.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#113

Post by dgabriel »

olavk wrote: post #111
nir wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mention it as example of adults who have priorities traditionally associated with younger people - the low birth rate in places like Germany or Italy partly comes from adults preferring a certain lifestyle (a better car, exotic vacations, living in fashionable=expensive neighborhoods etc) (I'm not judging this, btw, it's a valid choice.)

The reason for the low birth rates in eg. Italy is probably not primarily because people want cars and vacations, but rather that society is structured such that if a woman gets a child, she have to give up her career and become a housewife. Therefore many women defer having kids or choose not to have kids. In Scandinavia birth rates are relatively higher - definitely not because Scandinavians don't like cars or vaca…

Very true, same in France where the family benefits are amazing.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#114

Post by rsheridan6 »

bokonist wrote: post #79
jacobolus wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some things (e.g. the hair dressing you mentioned), I concede that licensing requirements are unnecessary, and their use should be reexamined. For others (public defenders, surgeons, structural engineers, etc.) such licensing and formal training is in my opinion critically important. To construe it as purely anti-competitive is pretty misleading. What proportion of top-level architects don't have architecture deg…

What proportion of top-level architects don't have architecture degrees? Today all of them do because it is legally required. My girlfriend is currently attending architecture school and it is beyond useless. She's learned an awful lot about "aura" and "algorithmic design" and precious little about designing buildings for the real world. Architects end up learning everything on the job. In the 19th century, it was no…

>My preferred solution then, would be to get rid of electoral democracy.

To be replaced with...?

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#115

Post by wensing »

shaunxcode wrote: post #81
nir wrote: post #6

The 3 stage process of childhood - adolescence - adulthood is already irrelevant in many affluent Western countries, but what was removed isn't adolescence but adulthood. Many 40 year olds manage their lives as teenagers (look at the low birth rate in western Europe, or high divorce rate in the US) and vice versa - teenagers build $15b (if you believe it ;)) companies.

What about people that choose to turn their "parental instinct" to have and nurture children towards helping their society as a whole instead? Is that also a sign of immaturity for lack of "progeny"?

Without downplaying anything done for society as a whole, I must say that it's unlikely you'll ever be as influential upon society as a whole as can be upon your own children. Also, children also have a way of exposing your weaknesses that is unique to their relationship with (and reflection of) you.

Granted, these are just vehicles to maturity, not a promise of success. Everyone fails in some measure, some horribly.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#116

Post by wensing »

unalone wrote: post #41
kingkongrevenge wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A small fraction of adolescents want more responsibility It's a question of the meaning of "want." I think a small fraction of adolescents can articulate that they "want" meaningful responsibility and structure, or make any efforts to get it.

I think that lots of adolescents honestly do not want to do anything. They prefer having no responsibilities whatsoever. I thought it was otherwise: that people who didn't want to work or improve or learn were people that didn't have a good method of doing so, that they were restricted by the system. Long story short, I found out that's radically not the truth. Some people are a little bit icky inside.

I think that lots of adolescents honestly do not want to do anything. They prefer having no responsibilities whatsoever.

That's because you can't start with adolescence. You have to start increasing responsibility from roughly age 2. Get them used to it, reward it, show them the connection between increased responsibility and increased choice and freedom. Then they'll want it. The problem with most adolescents is the 12 years prior.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#117

Post by sethg »

dpatru wrote: post #23

A long time ago I listened to "The Bell Curve" on tape. One of valuable ideas I got from the book was that we should strive to create a valuable place for everyone in society. Everyone, whether young or old, intelligent or not, should feel that they are contributing something of value. No one should feel that they have nothing to give and that society would be better off without them. Furthermore, we should encourage…

I would love to live in a society in which teenagers and young adults spent more time apprenticing and less time in formal schools. But in the current economy, I wonder how practical it is. Even if the apprentice works for free, training the apprentice is a cost borne by the master. Masters have to risk seeing their apprentices go off and work for someone else (or, heck, work in a totally different field) and apprentices have to risk discovering that they were kept so busy with menial work that they didn't actually learn anything.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#118

Post by shard »

frisco wrote: post #15

One thing that continually throws me is the whole, "more school, especially more college!" idea. The skills that have actually put me in interesting situations, like serious brain machine interface research or a startup doing quantitative methods for human resources, had nothing to do with school. At least for me, I'd have been much better suited for an "apprenticeship" rather than having just having to tolerate clas…

Sure, American hackers will be just as knowledgeable as Chinese hackers, but if in general the Chinese population becomes more learned (which is happening at a rapid pace as China gets closer to being a first world nation), we would have disadvantages that they don't have, such as the anti-intellectual attitude that exists in many parts of the US.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#119

Post by shard »

Tichy wrote: post #13

Why stop there - let's remove individuality altogether. With a proper mix of drugs, children could absorb the lessons at school at a much faster rate, and could take the role they are destined for with near 100% accuracy. Unwanted and misleading desires could be done away with. Imagine the benefits for society if kids were 100% docile and controllable.

That seems backwards. Adolescence is more about fitting in and doing what other people are doing (including adopting the "I'm an individual" battlecry) than it is about individuality.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#120

Post by bokonist »

rsheridan6 wrote: post #114
bokonist wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What proportion of top-level architects don't have architecture degrees? Today all of them do because it is legally required. My girlfriend is currently attending architecture school and it is beyond useless. She's learned an awful lot about "aura" and "algorithmic design" and precious little about designing buildings for the real world. Architects end up learning everything on the job. In the 19th century, it was no…

>My preferred solution then, would be to get rid of electoral democracy. To be replaced with...?

One option: Abolish Congress and the presidency. I mean, what have they done for you lately? Can you name a single good deed they've done in the past 30 years? Use some sort of board of trustees to select the Supreme Court justices and the Joint Chiefs. Perhaps this board of trustees would be selected by existing trustees, or perhaps we could use something like the Venetian lottery system ( http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2008/03/unpredictable-elect... ).

Other options include something like Juristopia ( http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2007/05/juritopia.html ) or Formalism ( http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/04/formali... )

Or, if you want something a little more proven, there is always Monarchy.

Basically, anything that doesn't use a ritualized form of gang warfare would be better than democracy in my book.

Post reply on HN