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Let's End Adolescence

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Re: Let's End Adolescence

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't invented out of the blue, but it was an evolved creation of politics. In classic democratic fashion, a lot of factions were pushing their own agenda that ended up making the country as a whole worse off. The education establishment has continually upped the drop out age. Labor unions ( in alliance with wealthy parents) pushed for stricter child labor laws to reduce competition for jobs. Aristocratic progres…

> Labor unions ( in alliance with wealthy parents ) pushed for stricter child labor laws to reduce competition for jobs. Aristocratic progressives wanted an institution to indoctrinate immigrants in the American way of live [ sic ]. The rise of credentialing laws made college a necessity for earning a decent income. Please provide citations of serious studies of these trends you talk about; this analysis seems facile…

Unfortunately a lot of this came from books and articles I read years ago. "Indoctrination" is a bit of a loaded word, perhaps I should have said "assimilation" or "acculturation". But it was definitely a major factor. I remember reading a long paper about the movement establishing universal high school in New Haven in the early 1900's. It all revolved around dealing with the massive flows of immigrants who had no grounding in American civic culture.

As for credentialing laws, pretty much all professions rely on some level of book knowledge plus on the job training. The book knowledge can be provided for by reading books and passing an exam. You don't need to attend three years of law school in person to become a great lawyer. Nor do you need four years of university to be a great engineer. The architecture profession seems to have been much better off without any degree requirements. Just compare the architecture of the 1800's to that of the past few decades.

30% of jobs in the U.S. economy now have legal credentialing requirements. That includes everything from hair dresser to interior designer. Even jobs like parole officer now require a four year college degree. We're essentially recreating the old guild system, which stifles economic growth. I don't think it's any accident that the most dynamic sectors of the economy - software, consumer electronics, movies - have virtually no licensing requirements.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#72
post #31
post #13

Why stop there - let's remove individuality altogether. With a proper mix of drugs, children could absorb the lessons at school at a much faster rate, and could take the role they are destined for with near 100% accuracy. Unwanted and misleading desires could be done away with. Imagine the benefits for society if kids were 100% docile and controllable.

Yeah. Because school is ABSOLUTELY a good way to promote individuality and unique thinking. Because most teachers DON'T push for students to adapt to a single way of thinking because it makes them easy to manage. Because students DON'T judge students for individuality, creating a lopsided social ladder that lasts easily into college.

But they are not good enough, they did not succeed in quelling adolescent behavior.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#73
post #66

I discarded this guy's argument once I read this paragraph: And experiments such as the one my daughter, Jackie Cushman, is running in Atlanta—where poor children are paid the equivalent of working in a fast-food restaurant to study and do their homework—are examples of a more dynamic future. How is being paid to study and do homework an example of early adulthood? One huge difference between adults and non-adults is…

"This guy" is Newt Gingrich, btw.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Labor unions ( in alliance with wealthy parents ) pushed for stricter child labor laws to reduce competition for jobs. Aristocratic progressives wanted an institution to indoctrinate immigrants in the American way of live [ sic ]. The rise of credentialing laws made college a necessity for earning a decent income. Please provide citations of serious studies of these trends you talk about; this analysis seems facile…

Unfortunately a lot of this came from books and articles I read years ago. "Indoctrination" is a bit of a loaded word, perhaps I should have said "assimilation" or "acculturation". But it was definitely a major factor. I remember reading a long paper about the movement establishing universal high school in New Haven in the early 1900's. It all revolved around dealing with the massive flows of immigrants who had no gr…

For some things (e.g. the hair dressing you mentioned), I concede that licensing requirements are unnecessary, and their use should be reexamined. For others (public defenders, surgeons, structural engineers, etc.) such licensing and formal training is in my opinion critically important. To construe it as purely anti-competitive is pretty misleading.

What proportion of top-level architects don't have architecture degrees?

Finally, do you think that teaching citizens about civic culture and American political institutions is a mis-use of public education?

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#75
post #23

A long time ago I listened to "The Bell Curve" on tape. One of valuable ideas I got from the book was that we should strive to create a valuable place for everyone in society. Everyone, whether young or old, intelligent or not, should feel that they are contributing something of value. No one should feel that they have nothing to give and that society would be better off without them. Furthermore, we should encourage…

>Thus, if the best effort a man with an IQ of 80 can do is sweep the streets, then we should give him job as a streetsweeper and not replace him with a robot. --

Assuming we _could_ replace them with a robot, this would seem to imply that the person is truly without use but that we are providina a made-up task in order to make this person feel 'useful'. They might as well be tieing and untieing knots on a piece of string, leading an existence depending on the generosity of others. I am not sure if there is a better definition for 'society would be better off without them', even if this is hidden from them. I am all for finding useful tasks a human of IQ 80 (whatever that means) can accomplish, but withholding progress and providing a fraudulent sense of accomplishment does not strike me as the most respectful approach one can take towards solving this problem.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#78
post #49

If Newt Gingrich says this, I have to wonder if it is because Republican think tanks have come to the conclusion that the allure of Democratic ideals are too irresistible for school/university inhabiting kids, and they must be converted to tax paying realists much earlier.

This DH1 feels a bit too tight. Do you have anything in a DH4?

On further inspection, you will find that I am not even objecting to the argument, but merely wondering about the underlying motives. I do believe the argument to be a reasonable one.

Re: Let's End Adolescence

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately a lot of this came from books and articles I read years ago. "Indoctrination" is a bit of a loaded word, perhaps I should have said "assimilation" or "acculturation". But it was definitely a major factor. I remember reading a long paper about the movement establishing universal high school in New Haven in the early 1900's. It all revolved around dealing with the massive flows of immigrants who had no gr…

For some things (e.g. the hair dressing you mentioned), I concede that licensing requirements are unnecessary, and their use should be reexamined. For others (public defenders, surgeons, structural engineers, etc.) such licensing and formal training is in my opinion critically important. To construe it as purely anti-competitive is pretty misleading. What proportion of top-level architects don't have architecture deg…

What proportion of top-level architects don't have architecture degrees?

Today all of them do because it is legally required. My girlfriend is currently attending architecture school and it is beyond useless. She's learned an awful lot about "aura" and "algorithmic design" and precious little about designing buildings for the real world. Architects end up learning everything on the job.

In the 19th century, it was not uncommon for architects to be high school drop outs. The New York Public library, some of the tunnel projects under London, the California Aqueduct, were all designed by drop outs.

The structural integrity of the buildings was very high, and the aesthetics far surpass the creations of modern architects.

To construe it as purely anti-competitive is pretty misleading.

I obviously would not want an untrained surgeon practicing on me. The trouble is that credentialing laws are a highly unstable equilibrium. It requires 8 years of post-secondary schooling to prescribe penicillin, read an x-ray, or set a broken bone. I could be convinced that 2 years of schooling might be necessary. But not 8. The reason it is so high is because of lobbying by the AMA. I'm sure they argue that the requirements are in the public interest. Perhaps they even believe their own PR. But if you talk to doctors about medical school, most of them will tell you that it had little relevance to their actual job.

Perhaps the most notorious example of credentialing is the orthodontist profession. The average orthodontist works 35 hour weeks and makes 350k ( about 40% more than dentists). The reason for this is that number of orthodontists allowed to graduate each year is actually capped at 280. The orthodontist association have even gone after inventors who devise new labor-saving (and thus income-reducing) braces, See the case of Viazis v. American Association of Orthodontists. This is blatantly anti-competitive, and it costs thousands of dollars from the pocket book of every American.

Finally, do you think that teaching citizens about civic culture and American political institutions is a mis-use of public education?

I once worked a bit on capitol hill. The civics class description of American democracy bears little resemblance to the reality. However, these the civics class lies are probably necessary to make a democratic system even marginally functional. My preferred solution then, would be to get rid of electoral democracy.

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