Earlier quoted context omitted.
...said the Russians. Until they got drafted into an illegal war...
I am not Russian and China is not Russia
What protections does China have from an abusive government that Russia didn’t?
Vacations in the Soviet Union
331–340 of 422 posts
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
North Korea is an exception, since it’s pretty hard to talk to actual locals. Having lived in one of those illiberal countries for a while (China) I could clearly see how the US media distorted everything, reduced Chinese people to a monolith, downplayed or simply ignored all of the genuinely good things happening, and took every opportunity to highlight the negatives. It is to the point where every positive, interes…
Maybe you should have gone to China last year or the year before to enjoy the authentic Chinese experience of living in a cage without food because grocery shopping was verboten.
This is exhibit A of how the media in the US and Europe misrepresent China. The fact that you think this is how things were perfectly illustrates the problem. If zero-CoVID had really meant endless lockdowns, Chinese people wouldn't have put up with the policy for nearly 3 years.
There were lockdowns in China, but they were limited in time, and before mid-2022, they were relatively rare (as in, nobody I knew was subject to one after CoVID was eliminated in China in March-April 2020). For most of 2020-21, life in China was more normal than in the US and Europe.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#333There are a bunch of zoomers out there who un-ironically claim Communism is the ideal way of life. I've worked with some of them. I still can't fathom what's going on in their brains.
I know one of them.
They make some good points against capitalism, but like Democracy is the worst form of government other than all the others, capitalism is the worst economic system other than all the others.
But I simply cannot agree with a world that make everybody equal, no matter how much or how little work they do. People who work jobs that require extensive studying (ie, medical doctors) or jobs that almost literally nobody would ever volunteer for (ie, cleaning public restooms) should be rewarded.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#334I lived half of my life in Soviet Union and would say that this article is simplification with sources more from instate propaganda than from reality. The article basically describes russian upper middle class (yes, there were classes within soviet society) after WWII. Most of people couldn't even dream about Sochi. Soviet Union was huge and differences between regions, classes, nationalities etc were very much there…
Yeah as somebody coming from former Czechoslovakia, it was hard for us to travel too, even in 80s. My parents were forbidden to travel to the sea to former Yugoslavia for example, since it was neutral country that one could use to escape to Austria. Heck, even travel to very much communist Poland nearby was very hard, special approvals from apparatchiks were required and those were only granted to regime-friendly fol…
> Heck, even travel to very much communist Poland nearby was very hard, special approvals from apparatchiks were required and those were only granted to regime-friendly folks. Not unlike current China for example.
You don't need any special approval to leave China nowadays, and haven't for a few decades. Hundreds of millions of Chinese people vacation abroad.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
These examples highlight the deficiencies of the Soviet economy, and it's evident that such failures caused considerable suffering among the population. Nevertheless, given more time to engage in activities akin to the first two examples, and separated from the threat of malnourishment, I believe I would experience greater happiness and a stronger connection to both my food and community. Through shared struggle, bar…
As someone who also lived in that society, albeit briefly, I can tell you that "experiencing a stronger connection with your community" is not necessarily a positive. Especially when you don't exactly have much choice when it comes to picking said community in the first place.
Certainly, I completely agree that it's not always a positive. Western capitalist culture is better suited to providing freedom to non-conformists, and it's true that life can be arduous in communal cultures if one deviates from the norm.
On the other hand, there are psychological advantages to collaborating with one's community to address shared issues. In western capitalist culture, many individuals are predisposed to feeling that their problems are their own responsibility, leading them to believe that any misfortune they experience is solely due to a lack of effort or poor decision-making on their part.
I wonder if it would be possible to build a society that gets the positive parts of both approaches, or if there is a better balance to be sought between individualism and collectivism.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll give you something much simpler than all of those things: having enough food, having housing that doesn't leak, having running water, having electricity, having access to schooling, having toilets, not having nearly every street in the city be a dirty mud pool full of trash, having safe streets mostly devoid of violent crimes. None of those things were a given when I grew up. Those things ard still not a given i…
Why are you pretending these things are mutually exclusive? You can, in fact, lift a country out of poverty without also inflicting an authoritarian state on the populace. Half the world managed it — you’re just making excuses for authoritarianism. We’re discussing basic human rights, not “VPN annoyance”.
If you truly want to know what I think and why I think it, feel free to email me and take this discussion off HN. You can find my contact through my profile.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
...said the Russians. Until they got drafted into an illegal war...
I am not Russian and China is not Russia
My stron belief is that freedom of speech (free internet) together with democratic elections are the only things that combined can prevent the government from coming up with their own rules when it so suits them.
And when they eventually do, you will have nothing to say about it
Just like the russians today.
They too have a rich culture of writers, poets and composers that they should have the right to be proud of.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
Very much this. The only area where I felt uncomfortable was in Xinjiang, as two friends in that region have effectively been “disappeared”. While I am skeptical of much of what has been written on this topic, due to its obvious use as propaganda, many of the tours I had there reminded me of those in DPRK. There was an obvious level of orchestration designed to show you a face of Xinjiang which lacked any warts.
When were you there? Did you choose to have a tour instead of freely traveling on your own, or was it not a deliberately choice?
This was right before COVID. I was there as part of an economic cooperation summit, so the tours were part and parcel of that event. I am supposed to visit again later this year.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is so much amazing beauty in the world, including the largest country on the planet, Russia - and then especially areas in China, which I would LOVE to visit, but the governments of each country kinda suck, so its not a place I'll likely go (imagine mtn biking through some of the amazing landscapes of either) With that said, I'd love to hear Lex Fridman's opinion on all of this.
I encourage you (barring safety concerns) to travel to countries whose governments are considered illiberal. Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Russia, China, Turkmenistan, Brunei. You learn a lot about how the western media tends to exaggerate for political ends.
Absolutely enlightening, but be prepared to be made very sad by the truth about how many people actually live in illiberal countries.
Also unless you make a very concerted effort to get to know what is going on, you often will be blissfully ignorant because tourist areas are abnormally nice, and the workers in the tourist areas can be very motivated to present a happy face, and usually a language barrier.
You do get a slight feel, but what you don’t get to see is usually the part that matters e.g. why uncle Bob is dead or in jail; the difficulty in getting healthcare in Cuba; police abuse; the hidden constraints on “normal” freedoms.
Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
With sufficient repetition, propaganda embeds itself into a person’s core belief system. This makes it self-replicating in ways that no state alone has the resources to accomplish. Very quickly when people travel (even if within their own country), they realize that their worldview has been shaped by what others want them to see. Maybe it is a benign travel ad that crops out the favela in the background, maybe it is…
Oh, I've been to China many times. Enough times to appreciate not having been born there. Western media about China, while somewhat one-sided, isn't particularly unfair in my experience.
You and I must have different definitions of “unfair” if being one-sided isn’t at odds with fairness.