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Vacations in the Soviet Union

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Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#291

Post by medvezhenok »

medvezhenok wrote: post #287
bequanna wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not because the work is actually worth less in some sense. It depends on how you define value. If you mean value in terms of how much money you receive, you actually need other people to agree that what you're doing is worthwhile. If you only care about the feelings that YOU get from doing the work (which is totally OK) your work is still valuable, but don't expect others to provide you value in the form of money w…

You're not paying for my software engineering either, at least not directly. In fact, you don't have a choice about it. It's included in the markup of the products you purchase - in all of them. In fact, if you had a choice, if we sold software services the way we sell art today, software salaries would go way down (in fact, someone could increase revenues for a company by making it impossible for you to unsubscribe.…

My point is that money is a very imperfect proxy for what people find valuable - frequently the things we spend the most money on are not a free market. And the closer you look, the more imperfect it gets.

Someone would happily buy a house that's half the size of most on the market (or less) - unfortunately, such houses are prohibited by regulation. So they are forced to choose between buying twice the house at twice the cost or renting.

It sort of works when you're comparing product A to product B at the store. When you're comparing parts of the economy, there are much greater forces and distortions at work.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#292

Post by int_19h »

lawrenci wrote: post #153
martythemaniak wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, the gap between reality and propaganda is hilarious. Soviet workers and their colonized subjects spent their leisure time filling in for the massive failures of the state to provide anything resembling their promises. Some excerpts from my childhood: * Family outing to the fields to harvest carrots to pickle for the winter. This would be bartered with other families who went to harvest other veggies, so th…

These examples highlight the deficiencies of the Soviet economy, and it's evident that such failures caused considerable suffering among the population. Nevertheless, given more time to engage in activities akin to the first two examples, and separated from the threat of malnourishment, I believe I would experience greater happiness and a stronger connection to both my food and community. Through shared struggle, bar…

As someone who also lived in that society, albeit briefly, I can tell you that "experiencing a stronger connection with your community" is not necessarily a positive. Especially when you don't exactly have much choice when it comes to picking said community in the first place.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#293

Post by revertmean »

bequanna wrote: post #165
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #103

There are a bunch of zoomers out there who un-ironically claim Communism is the ideal way of life. I've worked with some of them. I still can't fathom what's going on in their brains.

One explanation I've found pretty accurate: When the young start to become educated (late teens, early 20's) they face the realization that they will be entering the world on the bottom of the economic totem pole. There are two primary responses to this: 1. Realize that the real world is competitive and difficult and much self-improvement and hard work will be needed to thrive. These people put their heads down and g…

So, the types are:

1. Keep your head down, work hard and humbly, be a good little serf.

2. Say "screw this", realise there's a ton of wealth in the world and the leeches are taking it all, push for some changes that might actually make a difference in the world.

Capitalism preys on the people who are susceptible to the first path.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#294

Post by MSFT_Edging »

iudqnolq wrote: post #290
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask Chinese people outside of China, they also really don't care. They know what happened, its like the Kent State shooting for them. The west severely exaggerates every bad thing that happens over there then pretends like every misstep is solved with execution. Sure there's censorship but its exaggerated to a level of fiction in the west, like a movie that's "based on real events". More than likely if you ask…

.

No, I mean the person I had in mind knew full well about it. Just thought of it as something that was bad, but not an indictment of an illegitimate state like people talk about it.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#295

Post by iudqnolq »

stcroixx wrote: post #244
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not difficult to visit China (except that you'll probably have to apply for a visa, but Chinese people have to do that to visit Western countries too). You won't experience much about the government while there. Police aren't really that present in public. Border control is like any other country. The only issue you're likely to run into is the Great Firewall, for which you can just install a VPN before arriving…

Is it allowed for foreigners to travel to where the forced labor re-education camps are? I’d assumed it was not.

To the extent you are all you'll see is buildings. This illustrates the limits of using personal observation to learn things if you aren't an expert.

A lot of the forced labor involves people involuntarily working alongside voluntary workers at ordinary factories. As a foreigner you won't see anything notable there.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#296

Post by penneallagricia »

CalChris wrote: post #224

I worked for Olivetti in Milan and Ivrea the mid/late 80s. In particular, that was before the wall came down. When I landed at Malpensa in Milan for the first time, I noticed there was an Aeroflot airliner parked on the tarmac. This seemed odd to me. Why would someone want to fly from Milan to the USSR? Olivetti was a massive (at the time) paternal Italian company. It had a department called Gestione Varie , miscella…

> I worked for Olivetti in Milan and Ivrea the mid/late 80s.

Really interesting, you're the first I meet that has. Olivetti still has a stellar reputation in Italy, disliked by other enterpreneurs and (so they say) loved by his employees. What's sure is that the work conditions were really progressive and I think still unparalleled today, at least in Italy.

Do you have any anecdote or interesting fact to share about your time there?

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#297

Post by int_19h »

quacked wrote: post #239
DubiousPusher wrote: post #62

This is great. I've been interested in understanding how the Soviet economy worked for a long time. I've found only a handful of articles like this one. Unless you're willing to delve into hardcore economic academic papers (I am not) it's hard to get an actual informed perspective. Most Googling around will basically return you the rote response that it basically didn't work. Which, despite the many issues with the S…

> Which, despite the many issues with the Soviet economy, is obviously not true. The first thing I hear from any ex-Soviet who grew up in the USSR is how their lives were impacted by the constant shortages and censorship of issues with the supply chain. There's a classic joke from the USSR that goes: "Comrade, aren't you excited for when the USA finally falls?" "No, who will we buy our grain from?" Another one: "Isn'…

My favorite one went like this:

A guy walks into the store, looks mournfully at the bare shelves, and asks the worker at the counter, "So, comrade, you don't have any meat today, do you?"

"Comrade, did you not read the sign at the entrance? This is a seafood market; we don't have any fish. The meat shop is across the road - they don't have any meat."

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#298

Post by sangnoir »

silversmith wrote: post #267
gdy wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just sovietophobic fiction. I remember the slogan "Family is the unit of society" and childless people had to pay a special tax. Also infidelity in marriage was frowned upon and could negatively affect the career.

From the "I remember" I assume you lived through it. Were you per chance from "proper" soviet union, aka Moscow / Petrograd area? Because allegiance to the state and nothing else was the ideal in the "less correct" regions such as Baltics. It "got better" as time wore on, but especially after the occupation, every attempt was made to erode anything and everything else people might gather around. Forced ethnic mixing…

> Forced ethnic mixing with deportations to faraway regions to dillute national identity.

Did you mean "to dilute regional/ethnic identity"? National identity cuts across regions and ethnicities.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#299

Post by obscurette »

Koshkin wrote: post #273
obscurette wrote: post #233

I lived half of my life in Soviet Union and would say that this article is simplification with sources more from instate propaganda than from reality. The article basically describes russian upper middle class (yes, there were classes within soviet society) after WWII. Most of people couldn't even dream about Sochi. Soviet Union was huge and differences between regions, classes, nationalities etc were very much there…

> Most of people couldn't even dream about Sochi. That's not true. Not to idealize anything, there were people, of course, who were poorer than average for one reason or another, but once in a while an average person could actually afford a vacation in Sochi and other areas around Black Sea. (The quality of accommodation is another question, of course.) Also, union members (i.e. pretty much everyone) were occasionall…

I'm only in my sixties, so yes, I remember. But that's not true. As I said – if you were in privileged middle class, yes, that was your life. I could never dream about it although my parents were educated people. Both worked in factory with thousands of workers and every year union got 5-7 vacation tickets (путёвка) in spas around Black Sea. Of course only people close to party and upper management got these. This wasn't the case only once – workers (including my parents) demanded that one ticket must be given to worker who had cancer in the last stage. My personal experience in last decade of Soviet Union was basically same although as a young university student I could already travel on my own with my peers. This wasn't in any way easy though.

Your experience may very different if you worked in military important factory etc. Second half of eighties was already a very different story though.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#300

Post by oriolid »

bugglebeetle wrote: post #67
0xDEF wrote: post #38

It's fascinating how the ideology of Marxism–Leninism (Communism) today is more popular than ever among young people in former capitalist heartlands like the US, Canada and UK. A simple European-style welfare state with universal healthcare is all you need to satisfy 90% of people but the elites in the US and the UK refuse to provide that.

Perhaps young people in the US, UK, and Canada understand that elites will only settle for “a simple European-style welfare state with universal healthcare” with the explicit threat of Communism? Historically, that seems to have been the case.

I think the process goes something like this:

Conservative parent/teacher/etc: "So you want free education and healthcare for everyone, are you some kind of communist or what?"

Young person, after reading the philosophy textbook chapter about Marx and ignoring a lot of history: "I guess I am one then"

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