New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#481

Post by IG_Semmelweiss » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:41 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #397

MagicMoonlight wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Because destroying the planet affects everyone and injuring yourself costs everyone else in state spending. We also don’t allow asbestos or releasing poison gas in your garden. 2. Would you consider spreading awareness a suitable solution to knife crime? No? I wonder why.

i don't follow your argument on #2. i also dont understand why we can't have legislation that says "you can only have a stove cooktop if its properly vented".. In the winter, when i lose electricity, i can run my house on a small amount of power because i have natural gas heat, cooktop, clothes dryer, and two natural gas fireplaces. I'm not particularly interested in giving up that safety or luxury.

this is extremely important to highlight.

Monoculture is risky in all domains. Heating is not exempt

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#482

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #462

cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

This might be the problem with this discussion on HN, there are people here who earnestly believe we will need batteries in them to power simple electric induction cooktops.

These products do exist, and while the price is still high I do like the idea. Then you can do high power cooking with a more modest electrical draw, because the stove draws high power from its local batteries and charges them more slowly via a wall outlet. This allows installation even when high power wiring is not available.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#483

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #462

cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

This might be the problem with this discussion on HN, there are people here who earnestly believe we will need batteries in them to power simple electric induction cooktops.

Induction cooktops generally require 220-40 outlets, so I get that a battery might be a way around that, I doubt it would work for code however.

A household battery made out of old Tesla batteries sounds like a good idea, but I think someone has thought of it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#484

Post by ivalm » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:43 PM UTC

pipodeclown wrote: post #475

jnwatson wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

What does that even mean? Did you not get the whole, burning hydrocarbons is bad for the climate memo? We have to stop all net carbon emmissions in the next fifteen years or were screwed (propably already are) and twats like you keep going online spouting your 'i don't buy the climate argument' bullshit. We're literally talking about burning hydrocarbons to heat stuff, how the hell can you say that you don't buy the…

We’ll muddle through. At any rate, the point is to focus on low hanging fruit —- target high emitters, an electric stove powered by a coal plant is worse than a natural gas stove.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#485

Post by bluescrn » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

chokma wrote: post #238

dustymcp wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cooking itself releases a bunch of stuff that isnt great regardless of stove its entirely on the ventilation.

Yeah, searing meat in the pan will raise the PM2.5 levels in my flat by a factor of 30+.

Well, before long that choice to eat meat will likely be taken away to 'save the planet', so that one will be solved...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#486

Post by emmanuel_1234 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

lumb63 wrote: post #193

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

2 weeks ago I met a Chinese chef, the kind that cooks with a wok on those extremely noisy burners. He thinks induction is better than anything.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#487

Post by michaelmior » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #460

ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

> almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach... What's the purpose of an outright ban then? Why not just ban it from rental properties? > I wonder if you've ever been poor? What do you think the median income for home ownsership is? I'm sure you make plenty of money more than most homeowners if you're renting in New York.

Average rental prices can be as low as $1,000 for four bedrooms depending on the county. I don't think it takes an income higher than most home owners to afford.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#488

Post by rgmerk » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

fwungy wrote: post #160

rgmerk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the vast majority of the population of New York State lives in places where air source heat pumps work just fine. Air source heat pumps can be built to work down to at least -20 Fahrenheit[1]. That's equal to the coldest temperature on record in places like Buffalo and Albany. For those relatively few people living in places which get even colder than that, there's the option of either ground loop heat pumps…

Yes, but at that point it's like running an AC during a hot Summer day. The compressor will be working very hard to keep up with -20. Our leaders have lost their minds pursuing green purity. It's a religion at this point.

-20 - at which point the COP of the heat pump I linked to is still well above 1 - is equal to the coldest temperature on record in the locations I mentioned. Not the coldest daily maximum. The coldest temperature ever recorded, and the heat pump still wouldn’t require any backup system. Yes, it’s probably working hard at that point, but so? We’re talking exceptional conditions for the location.

And for the other 99.99% of the time the heat pump is so much cheaper to run it’s not funny - and in the long run you save even more when you’re not paying for all that gas infrastructure to be installed and maintained.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#489

Post by srslack » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

I'll be burying a 1000 gallon propane tank, for propane heating and two propane ranges (I have an apartment I've constructed) within the next year, with a propane generator to help during power outages, while I still can. I'll be heating/cooling primarily with a heat pump, but it simply cannot be relied upon for safety.

This is ultimately performative, as it doesn't really help reach carbon targets, and politically it seems like suicide with something like 70% of homes having a gas appliance. Even weirder, the governor is from Buffalo. I'm not sure that this is the hill to die on in the northeast. But I guess it would be good for property values of previous construction.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#490

Post by speakfreely » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

pipodeclown wrote: post #475

jnwatson wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

What does that even mean? Did you not get the whole, burning hydrocarbons is bad for the climate memo? We have to stop all net carbon emmissions in the next fifteen years or were screwed (propably already are) and twats like you keep going online spouting your 'i don't buy the climate argument' bullshit. We're literally talking about burning hydrocarbons to heat stuff, how the hell can you say that you don't buy the…

You can believe climate change is real and an imminent threat and still hold the position that banning gas stoves is a meaningless, misguided policy that will have no effect on climate change. There is no mutual exclusivity.

A typical natural gas stove burner uses around 7,000 to 10,000 BTUs per hour, which translates to about 0.8 to 1.2 pounds of CO2 emissions per hour of use. This doesn't even qualify as a blip on the radar of the global emissions problem. It's completely irrelevant to the problem you claim is prompting your antisocial outbursts.

At some point, you'll have to decide whether it's more about the climate or more about you. Hopefully you'll choose the climate eventually.