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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#351

Post by annexrichmond »

topaz0 wrote: post #311
whiddershins wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. Most normal people in nyc have gas stoves and they are massively superior in every way to a typical electric range. Induction cooktops can be nice, but they are more expensive last I checked, and impose lots of limitations on what cookware you can use, including making it infeasible to use high end copper bottom French sauté pans, which also happen to be very hard to match the performance of. It is abs…

If you try to do exactly what you were doing on the gas stove in the same way, you will have a bad time, but my and many other people's experience is that a decent electric stove is perfectly capable of making good food once you figure out how to use it. Electric stoves in general can heat faster than gas, and in my experience heat more evenly (no hot spots), so you don't need the crutch of a copper bottom to conduct…

[flagged]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#352

Post by briantakita »

sudosysgen wrote: post #298
briantakita wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gas stove can be connected to a gas tank which can be bought at a gas station for less than $30USD... I can also purchase a propane heater from Home Depot or Lowes which can run off the same gas tanks for less than $200USD.

Still won't work. If your home is sufficiently air-tight so that you won't die of cold with that paltry amount of gas, you're going to die from the carbon monoxide from your stove. The propane heater from Home Depot either has the same problem or it uses electricity for the air induction system. If your goal is to be prepared, a generator and a heat pump will last longer, it will be cheaper for you and society in the…

You can take hot showers with a tankless Propane water heater as well assuming there's water pressure, costing Gas spoils & does not store for very long. Diesel & propane are both better at storage.

You can even run generators off propane, though at less power than gas. There's even dual fuel (Gas & Propane) generators you can purchase for At the end of the day, multiple fuel sources will probably work. Wood/coal/propane/kerosene for heat, solar/diesel/propane/gas for electricity, etc. Most grid down scenarios last less than a few days.

Being able to boil water is important as well. There are often boil alerts when there are brown outs.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#353

Post by armatav »

danans wrote: post #154
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

> This is the SF Bay Area, so it’s pretty much a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services. I assume this isn’t typical for most other parts of the country You would assume wrong. California's grid reliability statistics are actually better than the national average: Electric Utility Performance: A State-By-State Data Review https://www.citizensutilityboard.org/wp-content/uploads/202…

Pretty big miss on that particular statistic don’t you think?

It’s like if your a top basketball player but you come last in movement speed.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#354

Post by nonethewiser »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #131
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Relative to resistive heating which is of course 100% efficient. Gas is about close to 100% (you loose some via exhaust). Ground source heat pumps work pretty much anywhere. Air source heat pumps can be more challenging but can also work at more extreme temperatures. They don't stop working but their efficiency drops a bit. And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working.…

> And of course more rural places would also feature wood stoves as a backup.

Sure, but that’s worse than natural gas

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#355

Post by armatav »

WalterBright wrote: post #91
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

> a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.

That’s what causes the problems.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#356

Post by hdisjdudh »

annexrichmond wrote: post #330
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

many people will rent and have no say on what's better for them

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#357

Post by newZWhoDis »

annexrichmond wrote: post #330
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

Unfortunately we crossed that bridge a long time ago…

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#358

Post by CydeWeys »

annexrichmond wrote: post #330
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

Most people in NYC rent, and there are many other considerations to make when picking an apartment to move into besides what kind of stove it has. You're often taking what you can get. This law will mean that, going forward, there will be more apartments available that don't have air-quality-destroying gas stoves, meaning there'll be more suitable places for people to pick from.

Also, as the other commenter said, these are apartment buildings. If you burn your apartment down it's gonna affect your neighbors. If you mess up your indoor air quality it's gonna affect your neighbors.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#359

Post by Eric_WVGG »

annexrichmond wrote: post #330
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

All kinds of reasons. Besides widespread societal misinformation going back to the tobacco lobbyist days, a five-year-old cannot express a preference not to inhale toxic fumes.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#360

Post by adolph »

Given one of the health-deleterious of gas cooking come from the nitrogen in the atmospheric gasses used for combustion: maybe it would make sense to have stoves that used a pure oxygen source alongside the methane. This would be more expensive and hazardous but as a result lead to stronger controls over the combustion process.
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