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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#331

Post by nonethewiser »

danans wrote: post #96
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ? How about a little butane stove? They work great at hotel omelette bars! Or a Coleman stove? It's not that big a deal to cook when the power is out, really.

Well you prove the point. Gas is necessary when the power is out.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#332

Post by bluGill »

ricardobayes wrote: post #318
blindriver wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's strategy for electricity is non-existent. We have been perpetually at peak electricity use since 25+ years since I came here. Meanwhile electricity use from EVs has soared, and we don't have enough electricity for everything. AND we attempted to shut down nuclear power plants but that appears to be on hold for now. Plus, I'm paying over $0.50/kWh when I hit Tier 3, which I hit after 2 charges of my EV. E…

Well, holy smokes, I thought electricity was cheap in the US.

For most of us it is cheap. I don't know what is going on in California, but they are not typical.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#333

Post by SigmundA »

ou8_1_2 wrote: post #44
SigmundA wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.

I did not make the list, I was replying to the list given.

None of those devices pull the rated amount continuous except may the car charger which can be adjusted for less draw / longer charge time if needed.

Simply scheduling car charing for overnight would eliminate any issue, even so there is plenty of headroom on a typical residential system.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#334

Post by inconceivable »

rhaway84773 wrote: post #255

The reactions to the gas hookup ban really reminds me of how insular Americans really are. They can’t even imagine a world where gas does not come in pipes, when arguably that’s how the vast majority of the world lives. You want a gas stove? Buy a gas stove, and get a cylinder. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just don’t expect everyone else to subsidize running that gas in a pipe up to your gas stove.

reducing quality of life to be more like the rest of the world is not really a great sales pitch. america is a sales-driven society.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#335

Post by catiopatio »

LazyMans wrote: post #209
lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.

What happens, exactly, when everyone’s resistive heater kicks in, the grid is overloaded, and we wind up with rolling blackouts in -30 weather?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#336

Post by bluGill »

8note wrote: post #289
briantakita wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gas stove can be connected to a gas tank which can be bought at a gas station for less than $30USD... I can also purchase a propane heater from Home Depot or Lowes which can run off the same gas tanks for less than $200USD.

How much is a generator though?

$600 for one that will run your gas furnace. $15000 for one that will run your whole house. You probably want to spend more than the cheap end just so it is reliable. Or you can hook an inverter up to your car.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#337

Post by 8note »

john_shafthair wrote: post #26
CydeWeys wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet. How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a n…

I agree with everything you said except there has been a war on heating oil since before this tiff with natural gas. So even suggesting that is anathema because it would be career suicide for the politicians pushing this. You can certainly use an oil furnace as a second stage, though oil is more often used as a boiler for steam or hydronic.

Without said "war on heating oil" suddenly it becomes cheap to install multiple heating systems in your house?

What changes with it not being political suicide? Government subsidies paying to add oil infrastructure to houses and to pay for unused pipelines?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#338

Post by MereInterest »

jprete wrote: post #206
amrocha wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "shit hits the fan" to the point that you don't have electricity for several weeks then it's unreasonable to expect to be able to shelter in your own home imo.

Sheltering away from home is extremely expensive, disrupts anything resembling normal life - which a power outage does not - and may not even be possible if a large fraction of the local population all tries to find a hotel outside of the outage area at the same time.

> which a power outage does not

Things that don't work without electric power:

* Refrigeration. For a 6-12 hour power outage, leaving the doors closed is sufficient. For 1-3 days, fridge temperatures may be maintained by buying bags of ice, but not a freezer.

* Emergency communication. Landline phones might still function, depending on exactly where the breakage occurred. Cell phones have 24-48 hours of battery power at the most.

* Central heating. Even a gas furnace requires electricity for its controller.

* Kitchen ranges (conditional). For a gas range, this depends on whether you have a lighter or matches.

A power outage disrupts normal life. During a power outage, you cannot cook food, cannot preserve food, and cannot heat your home. Depending on the duration, sheltering away from home may be the less disruptive option.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#339

Post by dragonwriter »

blindriver wrote: post #286
dadjoker wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As California has shown multiple times, dependence on electricity alone can be disastrous.

California's strategy for electricity is non-existent. We have been perpetually at peak electricity use since 25+ years since I came here. Meanwhile electricity use from EVs has soared, and we don't have enough electricity for everything. AND we attempted to shut down nuclear power plants but that appears to be on hold for now. Plus, I'm paying over $0.50/kWh when I hit Tier 3, which I hit after 2 charges of my EV. E…

> AND we attempted to shut down nuclear power plants but that appears to be on hold for now.

California has had a grand total of four nuclear power plant, three are decommissioned, the fourth has is scheduled to have its two reactors be decommissioned in 2029 and 2030.

The “on hold” description for the 5-year extension (the schedule used to be 2024/2025) is inaccurate: it was contingent on replacements being identified and operational, those have been identified but were delayed by factors including a temporary tariff on relevant components, but are expected to be operational well before the 2029 date.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#340

Post by catiopatio »

gwbas1c wrote: post #257
lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold I live in MA and heat my whole house with a heat pump. It works fine. I have an electric strip for backup. My house (and heat pump) are five years old. The newer ones are better; Lennox's new model can work in Upstate New York without a backup heat source : https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-breakthrough-r... (I will adm…

> I really, really regret installing a gas stove

Why?

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