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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

301–310 of 1001 posts

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#301
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the concerns is nitrogen oxides (mostly nitrogen dioxide, as I recall) from high temperature combustion. Car engines attempt to limit combustion temperatures (usually by adding some exhaust gasses to the intake air) to reduce its production. Ventilation prevents it from reaching hazardous levels from a gas stove; induction does not produce it.

The point is most of the harm comes from the cooking, not the gas. Classic over optimizing. Might as well ban Teflon while you’re at it (the eu did this, as it’s harmful)

I'm not sure whether that's true (nitrogen dioxide can be pretty bad), but I am sure that ventilation is the answer either way. I suspect the main motivation for the ban is to be able to shut down the gas lines in the future because their existence results in methane leaking into the atmosphere. Health concerns might help them sell it ("think of the children" tends to be pretty effective, politically).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Sure. When we’re talking about the temperature band they work in. Once it hits 0C the efficiency is very low, and by -10C is almost doing nothing at all. At that point you have two things happening… 1. You are using electricity to warm your coils outside to keep frost and snow off them. 2. You are using drastically inefficient heat for your home. 200-300% in their band under…

200-300% efficient is what a very bad heat pump would do under ideal conditions. Good heat pumps have a coefficient of performance above 3 for temperatures above freezing (and above 4 for only mildly chilly outdoor temperatures), and still well above 2 at temperatures around 15°F/-10°C. My 10 year old apartment has a heat pump rated for a CoP of 2.3 at a temperature of 17°F/-8°C, which is actually below the record lo…

Cool. But, how much of the US gets below 17F? I think it’s a lot.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Where I live in New Zealand, I haven't experienced a power cut in years, and in my entire life I've only ever experienced a handful of short power cuts. So when I hear about the California experience, it feels pretty third world to me.

You hear about a whole state's worth of local power outages. If you instead compare to when anyone in new Zealand has a power outage, you'll be closer in comparison

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been out for 10 days at a time in Seattle.

Not for me it hasn't, you seem to be describing a very specific edge case, which doesn't seem that honest of an example.

[dead]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200-300% efficient is what a very bad heat pump would do under ideal conditions. Good heat pumps have a coefficient of performance above 3 for temperatures above freezing (and above 4 for only mildly chilly outdoor temperatures), and still well above 2 at temperatures around 15°F/-10°C. My 10 year old apartment has a heat pump rated for a CoP of 2.3 at a temperature of 17°F/-8°C, which is actually below the record lo…

Cool. But, how much of the US gets below 17F? I think it’s a lot.

17°F isn't the point at which my heat pump stops working. It's just the lower temperature conventionally used as a point of comparison on the spec sheets for such devices. There's another column on the spec sheet for 47°F (where my heat pump model is listed as having a CoP of 3.6).

And as for the question about colder climates: it's not a matter of whether an area can occasionally experience temperatures below eg. 17°F. What matters is whether you'll ever experience daily highs that are cold enough to prevent heating the house.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#306
post #272

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

>Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use Gas cooking makes sense when the infrastructure costs can be amortized with that of heating. One of these costs is the 2-3% of gas that leaks, and this loss will occur even if you heat your home with heat pumps so long as you're connected to the gas grid. If your only use of gas is cooking, it makes much more se…

Gas cooking makes sense when people want to cook with gas.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

My gas furnace won't run if there's no power because it uses various electrical systems for safety controls. I am not convinced that "we'll have it if we lose power" is actually a meaningful part of the public's reasoning for purchasing gas furnaces.

A cheap inverter from a car battery will run any gas furnace

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#308
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

You didn't include air conditioning, vacuum, power washer, power tools, etc. It's not that you'd be running all these things at once (although AC run a lot), but it's pretty crazy that you could even come close to tripping your main breaker.

The post I was replying to did not specify those devices.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#309

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

The 100% efficiency for the worst case electric heating is still 100% efficiency.

Burning gas is inherently more complex to transfer heat, and has more losses as a result.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

I'm guessing (maybe hoping?) that the downvotes are for the seemingly overly apocalyptic tone of your post. But FWIW, as someone who is from Texas who lost power for 5 days during Uri and nearly a week for the latest freeze this winter, I wholeheartedly agree. Not sure how I would have made it during Uri without gas - even with gas, we couldn't run our heater (system still needs electricity to run the fans, thermosta…

Power going out isn’t apocalyptic.

I’m not saying the power going out is no big deal. I’m saying he’s not being overly dramatic.

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