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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#531

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #469
hurtuvac78 wrote: post #250

Apple being motivated by improving security are BS, and it pains me te see people in this forum falling for it or reapeating this. There is a great tool to increase security: the browser and its sandbox. You don't need to install anything fishy on your phone, and the sandbox rights coukd be sufficient for many apps. But as an example, Apple denies the full screen feature for websites and even PWA... only installed on…

> the browser and its sandbox. A lot of viruses (and jailbreaks on iOS amongst others) are distributed via this browser / sandbox; it's only secure in theory and it took decades to get to that point. Sure (before the Rust evangelists swoop in), part of that was due to using unsafe languages; part was due to extension frameworks that had too much power (ActiveX, which was even used to update your operating system, I c…

a bit of history massaging in this comment.

Chrome and Firefox are as secure as Safari, if not more, banning them is a commercial choice not a technical one.

iOS exploits still exist, there's no real advantage in Apple sandboxing apps, they are routinely leaking users data and being exploited as well.

OTOH Apple refusing to implement certain web standards is proof that they cannot guarantee a safe implementation, which is a reason more to allow better browsers on their platform.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#532

Post by lozenge »

pmontra wrote: post #173
kaba0 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s good about physical SIMs? I do like apple for daring to improve the status quo there, so I want my European Edition with only e-simsz

The last time I dropped my phone and broke its screen I took out the SIM and left the phone in a repair shop. I went home, put the SIM in an old phone. If the broken phone had an eSIM, would I been able to use the old one as a backup? Maybe by going to a shop and askig for a physical SIM. That would be slower and less convenient. A physical SIM fits in a Samsung A40 which is probably the smaller and lighter Android p…

By this reasoning our SIM cards would still be their original credit card size.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#533

Post by [deleted] »

tpxl wrote: post #145
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

As far as I'm concerned if you 'bought' something, it should be yours to do as you please, including reselling and destroying it. If you didn't buy something, but rented it - for example a game on Steam or Epic Games store - then it should damned say so. It's a straight up lie to say you purchased something if you didn't.

[deleted]

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#534

Post by bookofjoe »

nicce wrote: post #479
matsemann wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they want it, download the app then. Allow others to not download it and use a PWA if they'd like. Actually I believe you're wrong: if people actually preferred Apple's way of doing it, Apple would have no reason to restrict other ways. They restrict it because people prefer the other way, and that would harm Apple's profits.

Average person does not know what they want. They don’t know how technology works. They don’t even see difference between PWA and apps. If everything becomes PWA, there is no transparency for the apps. No indication what data they collect. No control for the quality of the apps. No moderation over malicious apps. PWAs need more permissions to provide the functionality people need, it is not just website.

This "average person"[non-techie] doesn't even know what PWA is/means/stands for. Truth.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#535

Post by devjab »

nicce wrote: post #479
matsemann wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they want it, download the app then. Allow others to not download it and use a PWA if they'd like. Actually I believe you're wrong: if people actually preferred Apple's way of doing it, Apple would have no reason to restrict other ways. They restrict it because people prefer the other way, and that would harm Apple's profits.

Average person does not know what they want. They don’t know how technology works. They don’t even see difference between PWA and apps. If everything becomes PWA, there is no transparency for the apps. No indication what data they collect. No control for the quality of the apps. No moderation over malicious apps. PWAs need more permissions to provide the functionality people need, it is not just website.

> Average person does not know what they want.

The problem with statements like that, aside from the loftiness, is that you end up with a world where people who think they know better get to decide. I worked in the public sector digitalisation, and while I’m a programmer we were bundled with the rest of IT so I experienced what the supporters had to deal with. This included a lot of employees who genuinely couldn’t tell if the device they needed help for was an iOS or Android device without some guidance. So I’m not going to dispute the claims you make about how it’s nice to protect the “average person” from themselves, but I don’t think any of us will like the what that sort of thinking creates. Well, maybe some people will, but a lot won’t.

I recently wanted something for my two-factor keys and the best all I could find was for Android but not iOS. I ended up filming over a few $ for a Bitwarden subscription, but there are just a lot of little stories like that. I mean, I’m not in the audience for Fortnite, but I’m sure a lot of people were sad when it left iOS. A of which can be avoided if we stop giving all the power to the tech companies.

I’m not sure Apple really has anything to fear from it either in terms of security or usability. Part of the reason they sell so well, at least to me, is that they have the ease of use and tech that works out of the box. It’s very rare that I need side loading. I’m not a huge fan of the Safari enforcement, but it doesn’t really bother me either as I can still use FireFox and the sync. I think Google might have more to fear from it, since they need to peddle commercials inside apps like YouTube, and you can block that if they allow you to side-load app blockers, but for Apple I think almost everyone will just keep on trucking. It will of course hurt their control over payments, like the original poster points out, but that’s not really “my” or the “average persons” problem.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#536

Post by loganwedwards »

tonmoy wrote: post #517
hurtuvac78 wrote: post #250

Apple being motivated by improving security are BS, and it pains me te see people in this forum falling for it or reapeating this. There is a great tool to increase security: the browser and its sandbox. You don't need to install anything fishy on your phone, and the sandbox rights coukd be sufficient for many apps. But as an example, Apple denies the full screen feature for websites and even PWA... only installed on…

Are you sure PWA doesn’t work on iOS? I remember installing websites as apps on my iPhone. According to this SO answer I think one can even make it full screen (with a workaround at least): https://stackoverflow.com/questions/53061258/pwa-not-opening...

I “installed” drop.com as a PWA on my iPhone. It gets full screen real estate and a launcher icon.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#537

Post by simondotau »

wiseowise wrote: post #381
simondotau wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don’t buy an iPhone. I think it’s ridiculous that we are asking the government to save us from our own choices. As much as you and I don’t like it, what Apple is doing is perfectly legal. And as much as you or I might support a change in the law, you’re not going to get my support if the legislation is truly universal and not just a narrow-band targeting of a single company for developing an ecosystem which reso…

> Then don’t buy an iPhone. I think it’s ridiculous that we are asking the government to save us from our own choices. That's a great argument. I have even a better one: Don't dictate what and how people use their devices that they paid for with their hard-earned money.

Yes it's your device, but it's not your software. You don't own the software. And it's the software which is stopping you from doing what you want.

All software effectively "dictates" how a device works, whether you're talking about an OS or an app. If you buy an app, you don't get to decide how it works. You don't like it? Don't buy it. I don't see a big push for people crying to the government to stop Activision from dictating how to play Call of Duty.

Apple doesn't dictate what software runs on your iPhone, any more than a toaster manufacturer dictates whether you can use it as a space heater, or Toyota dictating whether your car can function as a boat, or Epic Games dictating whether Fortnite can be used to prepare your taxes.

It's true that Apple doesn't make the process of running your own software easy, but you are legally entitled to break whatever barriers you like and replace the OS with a Linux distro. Have at it. It's great. I support it. And if you want legislation that requires hardware manufacturers to provide documented paths for installing alternative operating system software, I'd support that legislation eight days a week.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#538

Post by heavyset_go »

kiicia wrote: post #520
heavyset_go wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's ban of all browsers but Safari turned out to be the main barrier preventing progressive web apps from being viable, deepening the duopoly power of themselves and Google, because Apple refuses to implement basic browser standards that are necessary for PWAs. And then when they do implement similar browser standards, they don't follow any web standards, they instead make their own proprietary bespoke web standa…

you seem to be completely sure that everyone loves and wants pwa newsflash: many users hate pwa, they prefer native apps

Someone's dislike of PWAs is irrelevant to whether or not someone else should be able to use them if they want to. It's also irrelevant when it comes to users who want to benefit from competition in the app distribution market. If you don't like PWAs, you're free to not use them, and you're even free to benefit from the improvements their competition brings to the whole mobile software ecosystem.

It's also ironic to bring up Apple's hindering of web standards as evidence of anti-monopolization of standards, considering the fact that the lack of PWA support forces users to use the proprietary App Store monopoly to install apps instead.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#539

Post by zarzavat »

kaba0 wrote: post #85
edandersen wrote: post #76

I wonder if they considered an "iPhone Europe Edition" - USB-C, side loading, physical SIM cards. Sounds like a good phone!

What’s good about physical SIMs? I do like apple for daring to improve the status quo there, so I want my European Edition with only e-simsz

In many countries there are zero local carriers that support eSIMs. Maybe in some hypothetical future this is not the case, but at least in this decade a phone that has a physical SIM is essential.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#540

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

Of course you own the hardware; you have the right to do whatever you want to it. If you want to use iPhones for target practice, have at it. You don't have the right to insist the manufacturer make it easy for you: your imagination about the uses to which the hardware could be put doesn't oblige the seller.
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