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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#91

Post by heavyset_go »

cyberpunk wrote: post #61
heavyset_go wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in a way, it is. All Microsoft has to do is revoke your application's signing certificate and Windows Defender will prevent it from running on Windows computers. Apple does the same thing with Notarization and Gatekeeper on macOS. If they choose to revoke your signing certificate, Gatekeeper will prevent your software from running on macOS. That means if you do, say or compete with something that Microsoft…

How come I can run so much software compiled from source then?

I don't know what platform you're using, what app distribution method you used, where the code was compiled, if the code was signed, where it was signed and by who, etc.

A generic answer to your question is that the software was signed by whoever compiled or distributed the software, which can include your own machine. Your own key might be in your trust store or your app distribution method might put their key in your trust store. Both macOS and Windows will treat software compiled on the same system it is run on as blessed to run without strict signing checks.

On macOS, ad-hoc certificates can be used, but the OS will treat those binaries as if they're radioactive. If you compiled code on macOS, the system will treat that software specially on that specific system and allow you to run it[1]. On Windows, certificates can be added to trust stores. Chocolatey, for example, has their own signing certificate for all of the compiled open source software they have in their repositories, so Windows allows their software to run.

The biggest issue is what comes with software distribution itself, where your code isn't blessed by default by the system it was compiled on, or doesn't have signing certificates in the users' trust stores, and Gatekeeper and Windows Defender go out of their way to stop your users from running software with signing certificates they don't like.

[1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/426854

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#92

Post by smoldesu »

hayst4ck wrote: post #72
heavyset_go wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The App Store is a poor line of defense, because it isn't about user security, it's about securing Apple's billion dollar app distribution monopoly moneyhose. User security is just a rhetorical afterthought. When we forgo real system safety in favor of gatekeeping corporate revenue, that isn't security. In fact, such a scheme is responsible for mass distribution of malware. Apple's App Store is responsible for distri…

I think you need to look at the system of incentives and alignment If apple's billion dollar app distribution monopoly money hose results in security problems for people, then their billion dollar app distribution monopoly money hose will be in jeopardy since it's justification comes into question. So what you see as a problem is what makes me feel the best about it. Apple is aligned with only secure apps on their st…

It's a poor justification. You can cleanly implement a signing system for trusted developers (they've done it before), and it's obviously possible to distribute iPhone package files. All the pieces are in place, if it weren't for their $80 billion annual hayday then they wouldn't be dying on this hill in particular.

Maybe part of it is this security alignment issue, but upon scrutiny it's clearly a small and solvable piece of the puzzle. Imagine if Keurig tried using user safety to justify a 30% cut off every K-cup sold. Such an ecosystem is doomed to fail, especially at-scale and with completely arbitrary enforcement.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#93

Post by auggierose »

kaba0 wrote: post #79
auggierose wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do that already.

If you own a mac, run a specific software at least once a week, and limited to like 3 apps. For all practical purposes, this means “you can’t”.

> If you own a Mac

If you own an iPhone, it's actually very practical to also have a Mac.

> run a specific software at least once a week, and limited to like 3 apps.

What?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#94

Post by eimrine »

charcircuit wrote: post #38
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

>Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. It really wasn't. It wasn't normal to install arbitrary applications on the computers in your fridge, dishwasher, game consoles, flip phones, washing machines, etc. Platforms have varied over time in how open they are to having other people developing for them. iOS is an example of a more closed platform and has shown that closed platforms can b…

[flagged]

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#95

Post by andrewmcwatters »

wilg wrote: post #83
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

We focus too much on criticizing language instead of ideas. IMHO, this just leads to tiresome and hollow debates. So, I’ll call that out here. Also, your proposed rewording isn’t correct either because installing applications is already allowed. You can debate the App Store all you want, but it definitely does let you install apps. On topic: This is silly and Apple should allow sideloading. I don’t buy the security a…

Don't be mistaken: if you control the language, you've set the tone.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#96

Post by sudosysgen »

heavyset_go wrote: post #49
userbinator wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The huge difference is that's only a warning, and not a cryptographically locked-down system unlike Apple's.

Actually, in a way, it is. All Microsoft has to do is revoke your application's signing certificate and Windows Defender will prevent it from running on Windows computers. Apple does the same thing with Notarization and Gatekeeper on macOS. If they choose to revoke your signing certificate, Gatekeeper will prevent your software from running on macOS. That means if you do, say or compete with something that Microsoft…

You can just turn off defender. And being specifically put in the malware list isn't the same and if clearly false could be used in court.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#97

Post by kaba0 »

MBCook wrote: post #33

Duh? The EU has no jurisdiction over the US. So there will be no legal need for Apple to allow it here. Just like they don’t allow alternate payment methods for dating apps in the US like some other countries required and Apple had to comply with. The App Store is too critical to the way Apple sees things, they’re not going to just say “oh well”. I bet things are only open for EU residents with EU purchased phones. B…

Take a look at the “Brussels effect”. The only reason it doesn’t apply in this case is that software changes are easy to made — but Apple might still have to eventually let it go even in the US, if for example people like it enough.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#98

Post by aikinai »

politician wrote: post #66
aikinai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

> it’s not even how the industry started Which industry? The very earliest computers ran software written by end-users.

The computer industry. Computers were devices that came with predetermined hardware and software for a long time until unbundling took over and became the de facto standard.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#99

Post by kaba0 »

auggierose wrote: post #93
kaba0 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you own a mac, run a specific software at least once a week, and limited to like 3 apps. For all practical purposes, this means “you can’t”.

> If you own a Mac If you own an iPhone, it's actually very practical to also have a Mac. > run a specific software at least once a week, and limited to like 3 apps. What?

You get a license for a week only (without paying for a dev account), and has a limit of concurrently signing at most 7 apps (my parameters might not be exactly correct, but are roughly this), but a single application might require multiple signatures.

The most common way to make all this signing a bit more bearable is to have AltStore installed on your mac, which will automatically re-signs the select few apps you want in some hacky way (needs your Apple id and password).

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#100

Post by conjuredbytes »

foolfoolz wrote: post #81
onlypositive wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit. When was the last time you asked the builders association if you could remodel your kitchen? When was the last time you asked Honda if you could put new mags on your car? This whole idea that devices aren't owned when you purchase them is asinine and and insult to humanity. Your counter arguments…

the o. s. isn’t a hammer. it’s a service i’m sure you can find an o. s. that lets you do whatever you want. but will it be updated regularly with security fixes? will it support the latest connectivity technology like 5g? will it have built in support for the latest compression formats to take high res pics and videos? will it work anywhere in the world? if it does sure. go use it. i don’t think this exists and i’m h…

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