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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#51

Post by heffer »

afavour wrote: post #36
MBCook wrote: post #33

Duh? The EU has no jurisdiction over the US. So there will be no legal need for Apple to allow it here. Just like they don’t allow alternate payment methods for dating apps in the US like some other countries required and Apple had to comply with. The App Store is too critical to the way Apple sees things, they’re not going to just say “oh well”. I bet things are only open for EU residents with EU purchased phones. B…

It’s absolutely not as simple as “duh”. Not giving users a feature they want because it’s in your business interests to deny it is a difficult PR move, to put it mildly. Not to mention such a disparity in feature between different regions is pretty huge.

> Not to mention such a disparity in feature between different regions is pretty huge.

And at the same time not at all that uncommon. If you are in a market outside of the US I'm certain you will have experienced this first hand more than once. I have.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#52

Post by newaccount74 »

miramba wrote: post #47
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

The security on the iPhone is from the app sandbox, not from app review.

It's trivial to get something past app review (eg. look at casino apps that were disguised as games)

On the Mac, staying on the Mac App Store makes sense because it is the easiest way to enforce you only install sandboxed apps.

On iOS, that's not going to be necessary, because every app on iOS is sandboxed.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#53

Post by EMIRELADERO »

jacknews wrote: post #17
paxys wrote: post #15

I anticipate a huge market developing for unlocked second hand European iPhones in the US.

The feature will be tied to your apple id, obviously.

That would actually be illegal under the DMA:

[...]gatekeepers shall:

[...](f) refrain from requiring business users or end users to subscribe to or register with any other core platform services identified pursuant to Article 3 or which meets the thresholds in Article 3(2)(b) as a condition to access, sign up or register to any of their core platform services identified pursuant to that Article

"Operating systems" is part of the "core platform services" definition. Locking the use of iOS or sideloading capabilities behind an Apple ID (another "core platform service") would be a violation of the provision.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#54

Post by heavyset_go »

miramba wrote: post #47
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

The App Store is a poor line of defense, because it isn't about user security, it's about securing Apple's billion dollar app distribution monopoly moneyhose. User security is just a rhetorical afterthought.

When we forgo real system safety in favor of gatekeeping corporate revenue, that isn't security. In fact, such a scheme is responsible for mass distribution of malware. Apple's App Store is responsible for distributing over half a billion copies of Xcodeghost to iPhone and iPad users[1], and that's just one piece of malware.

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bbmz/the-fortnite-trial-is...

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#55

Post by Nursie »

parker_mountain wrote: post #41
gary_0 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even on Windows if I send an EXE or MSI of my software to someone they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The only guaranteed way around that is to be a big company (or a big open-source project). If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox, but why bother with that when you can just point your Web browser at a program running on someone else's server…

>If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox, these OSes were designed decades ago, before we really had a good grasp on security. there were other significant concerns as well, such as performance also, modern OS toolkits, such as on macos and windows 11, are moving towards a permission and API model that will allow sandboxing. In fact, macos is moving quite quickly towards this.…

> before we really had a good grasp on security

Not just that, but before we realised just how many people there would be trying to claw their way into any gap for all manner of dark purposes.

Early networked OS and protocol designers thought that people would, largely, cooperate with each other and share resources for the greater good.

I wish to live in their naively optimistic future, instead of the one with real humans :/

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#56

Post by stale2002 »

josephcsible wrote: post #42
paxys wrote: post #15

I anticipate a huge market developing for unlocked second hand European iPhones in the US.

I don't think that will happen, because I expect Apple will do something along the lines of "unless an iDevice is signed in with an account with a verified EU credit card, and/or has been in the EU for more than 50% of the time over the last year, disable the ability to sideload and wipe all existing sideloaded apps".

They could try.

At which point they get fined billions of dollars.

The EU does not mess around.

And the more "clever" apple tries to be, the higher the fine will be.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#57

Post by Nursie »

paxys wrote: post #15

I anticipate a huge market developing for unlocked second hand European iPhones in the US.

Define huge.

I think a small community of interested parties will pop up, but it’s unlikely to be more than a blip compared to device sales in general.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#58

Post by aikinai »

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work.

I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#59

Post by ihatepython »

miramba wrote: post #47
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

I used to think like you, but not anymore. I am not interested in installing random software from other people, I want to install my own software to be able to have full control over my own device.

I don't care about 'regular users'. I care about myself.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#60

Post by pseudo0 »

miramba wrote: post #47
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

So take five minutes to set up the parental controls on your children's devices. The idea that we should eliminate the ability to run arbitrary software "for the children" is completely ridiculous.
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