iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#41

Post by parker_mountain » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 3:23 AM UTC

gary_0 wrote: post #20

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Even on Windows if I send an EXE or MSI of my software to someone they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The only guaranteed way around that is to be a big company (or a big open-source project). If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox, but why bother with that when you can just point your Web browser at a program running on someone else's server…

>If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox,

these OSes were designed decades ago, before we really had a good grasp on security. there were other significant concerns as well, such as performance

also, modern OS toolkits, such as on macos and windows 11, are moving towards a permission and API model that will allow sandboxing. In fact, macos is moving quite quickly towards this.

And lastly, there is a widely deployed OS that runs all applications in a proper sandbox: chromeos

I think it's understood at this point by everyone in the industry that sandboxing is the future, but it's taking a while to get there.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#42

Post by josephcsible » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 3:36 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #15

I anticipate a huge market developing for unlocked second hand European iPhones in the US.

I don't think that will happen, because I expect Apple will do something along the lines of "unless an iDevice is signed in with an account with a verified EU credit card, and/or has been in the EU for more than 50% of the time over the last year, disable the ability to sideload and wipe all existing sideloaded apps".

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#43

Post by josephcsible » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 3:53 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #33

Duh? The EU has no jurisdiction over the US. So there will be no legal need for Apple to allow it here. Just like they don’t allow alternate payment methods for dating apps in the US like some other countries required and Apple had to comply with. The App Store is too critical to the way Apple sees things, they’re not going to just say “oh well”. I bet things are only open for EU residents with EU purchased phones. B…

> there will be no legal need for Apple to allow it here.

The point is that since Apple had to do the work to allow sideloading at all, most if not all of the lies they came up with for why they can't allow it for everyone won't work anymore.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#44

Post by cookiengineer » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:29 AM UTC

gary_0 wrote: post #20

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Even on Windows if I send an EXE or MSI of my software to someone they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The only guaranteed way around that is to be a big company (or a big open-source project). If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox, but why bother with that when you can just point your Web browser at a program running on someone else's server…

Fun fact: This is the reason google pivoted to the web, after being blocked as an alternative office suite on Windows.

They realized that they need to change the platform for distribution, and hence this is why the web (post-chromium) is now what it is...with all its absurd redundancies of APIs and bloat.

Only because Microsoft can't keep their shit together.

Apple is more complicated, because despite the absolute control they've established (no other browser engine / JIT compiler process allowed for whatever made up reasons) they did not face the European courts that forced Microsoft for the exact same thing to allow to install other Browsers.

And now we are stuck with Safari, repeating the loop, because Apple can't keep their shit together.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#45

Post by charleslmunger » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:37 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #39

gary_0 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me paranoid, but I see it as a slippery slope. And for most users that security warning is as good as a cryptographic lockdown anyways.

They are certainly boiling the frog slowly. And for most users that security warning is as good as a cryptographic lockdown anyways. On the other hand, I find it ironic how a lot of "security professionals" will complain constantly about users accepting security warnings with no thought anyway (and they usually use this argument to justify their increasingly authoritarian measures of controlling them.)

It can be simultaneously true that a warning can be a barrier to adoption of your software product versus a competitor, and that a warning is not an effective barrier for a user who thinks they're installing an unreleased video game or going to receive millions of dollars of crypto from foreign royalty.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#46

Post by EMIRELADERO » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:37 AM UTC

nomel wrote: post #10

hammyhavoc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why couldn't both be true?

How would app review work?

The whole point is that there would be no app review for independent apps.

It's not a technical change in who distributes the software, it's a radical change that results in developers being able to give apps to users without being in a contractual relationship with Apple period.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#47

Post by miramba » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:39 AM UTC

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), but would I let my kids do that nowadays? No way! Stay on the app stores, also on Windows and MacOS is the first line of defense. It‘s sad but the safest approach. Regular users don‘t need to install software on their own anymore, the same as they don‘t need to put processors, storage and Monitors together or install a sound card.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#48

Post by EMIRELADERO » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:39 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #42

paxys wrote: post #15

I anticipate a huge market developing for unlocked second hand European iPhones in the US.

I don't think that will happen, because I expect Apple will do something along the lines of "unless an iDevice is signed in with an account with a verified EU credit card, and/or has been in the EU for more than 50% of the time over the last year, disable the ability to sideload and wipe all existing sideloaded apps".

I presume doing the latter would raise serious CFAA concerns.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#49

Post by heavyset_go » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:43 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #23

gary_0 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even on Windows if I send an EXE or MSI of my software to someone they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The only guaranteed way around that is to be a big company (or a big open-source project). If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox, but why bother with that when you can just point your Web browser at a program running on someone else's server…

they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The huge difference is that's only a warning, and not a cryptographically locked-down system unlike Apple's.

Actually, in a way, it is. All Microsoft has to do is revoke your application's signing certificate and Windows Defender will prevent it from running on Windows computers.

Apple does the same thing with Notarization and Gatekeeper on macOS. If they choose to revoke your signing certificate, Gatekeeper will prevent your software from running on macOS.

That means if you do, say or compete with something that Microsoft or Apple doesn't like, they can prevent your apps from running on their platforms.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#50

Post by davnicwil » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 4:44 AM UTC

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

The issue with such a statement is that the terms can and do mean different things to different people. I probably have a similar definition of computer and application as you, but many people, maybe the majority, may not.

For one thing they might think of a phone as a fundamentally different thing from a 'computer' with a different role. In fact I strongly suspect this is the majority view.

Within that people probably think of an 'application' as fundamentally a pre-screened, pre-approved, piece of software to enable some function specifically on the phone and within the phone's ecosystem. Not as any arbitrary piece of software. In fact that might all be seen as a feature, not a limitation, in the majority of people's eyes. Again I strongly suspect that is the case.