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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#71

Post by ksec »

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

That is assuming Smartphone is a computer. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but the point is people have different interpretation. Some think it is an Appliance.

Sad that it has to come to this messy stage where the law has to be enforced. But then Apple isn't the same Steve Jobs Apple.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#72

Post by hayst4ck »

heavyset_go wrote: post #54
miramba wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

The App Store is a poor line of defense, because it isn't about user security, it's about securing Apple's billion dollar app distribution monopoly moneyhose. User security is just a rhetorical afterthought. When we forgo real system safety in favor of gatekeeping corporate revenue, that isn't security. In fact, such a scheme is responsible for mass distribution of malware. Apple's App Store is responsible for distri…

I think you need to look at the system of incentives and alignment

If apple's billion dollar app distribution monopoly money hose results in security problems for people, then their billion dollar app distribution monopoly money hose will be in jeopardy since it's justification comes into question.

So what you see as a problem is what makes me feel the best about it. Apple is aligned with only secure apps on their store and apple is very unaligned with insecure apps.

To apple security is not just a cost center, but a pillar of the justification for their monopoly position.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#73

Post by mhoad »

gary_0 wrote: post #20
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Even on Windows if I send an EXE or MSI of my software to someone they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The only guaranteed way around that is to be a big company (or a big open-source project). If security really mattered, every OS would run applications in a proper sandbox, but why bother with that when you can just point your Web browser at a program running on someone else's server…

If you hate cookies you’re going to be posted when you find out what’s happening in native apps. It’s an order of magnitude worse they just don’t have to ask or inform you first

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#74

Post by thesuitonym »

vivegi wrote: post #70

From the article > In addition, developers may have to pay extra if they want their apps to be available outside of the iOS App Store, Gurman says. The statement is a bit ambiguous. Is it pay Apple extra or pay extra to the 3rd party to have their app listed in the 3rd party app store? The former doesn't sound right; It is probably FUD. Logically, a 3rd party app store could compete on significantly reduced fees rela…

If I were being extremely charitable on the phrasing, I think they might mean, for example, if you pay Apple 30% (or whatever the going rate is) you might have to pay an external app store an additional number.

Or, it might mean Apple will charge higher rates for apps that are also available on other app stores? Not sure if that's entirely legal, but since when have pesky things like the law stopped companies as big as Apple?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#75

Post by politician »

wruza wrote: post #62
gary_0 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopoly? How about digital feudalism. "We've put ourselves in charge of protecting you, so we're going to help ourselves to a portion of everyone's gold, and make sure none of the serfs are up to anything we don't approve of."

This is incorrect. Apple doesn’t force you to buy iphone, and there is plenty of alternatives. Personally, I’d like to take full control over my iphone. And create apps for myself the way I see fit. But I’m afraid that with sideloading allowed, most software vendors will go sideloading-only. That means, nobody will have any control over their app’s privilege requests, behavior and other security related things. Basic…

> But I’m afraid that with sideloading allowed, most software vendors will go sideloading-only. That means, nobody will have any control over their app’s privilege requests, behavior and other security related things.

There is no reason why side-loading means "not sandboxed". Apps still need to use Apple SDKs to interface with the OS, so there is still an opportunity to request permissions and for the user to deny permissions and for the OS to honor the denied permissions.

Just like it works today on macOS.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#77

Post by jacknews »

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #53
jacknews wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feature will be tied to your apple id, obviously.

That would actually be illegal under the DMA: [...]gatekeepers shall: [...](f) refrain from requiring business users or end users to subscribe to or register with any other core platform services identified pursuant to Article 3 or which meets the thresholds in Article 3(2)(b) as a condition to access, sign up or register to any of their core platform services identified pursuant to that Article "Operating systems" i…

But that's the European law. Nothing stopping them locking sideloading for US Apple IDs I think? I mean they can't require an EU apple ID in order to access the sideloading feature, but they could deny it to US apple IDs.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#78

Post by kaba0 »

miramba wrote: post #47
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

And how exactly the AppStore prevents it? By using the OSs sandbox, which will apply the exact same way to user installed programs — you won’t suddenly run as root.

AppStore checking is waaay overhyped as anything meaningful.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#79

Post by kaba0 »

auggierose wrote: post #69
ihatepython wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think like you, but not anymore. I am not interested in installing random software from other people, I want to install my own software to be able to have full control over my own device. I don't care about 'regular users'. I care about myself.

You can do that already.

If you own a mac, run a specific software at least once a week, and limited to like 3 apps. For all practical purposes, this means “you can’t”.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#80

Post by aikinai »

andai wrote: post #64
aikinai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

Are they real downsides or just excuses cooked up by Apple to increase profits, and accepted by apple users to minimize cognitive dissonance?

The downsides are the obvious; security and privacy are better protected, malware is much harder to distribute and easier to shut down, fraud is more difficult.

You can absolutely disagree with the trade off, but pretending like it’s purely greed is obviously disingenuous.

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