Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

techradar.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 1001 posts

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#61

Post by cyberpunk »

heavyset_go wrote: post #49
userbinator wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they get a scary security warning that prevents them from running it. The huge difference is that's only a warning, and not a cryptographically locked-down system unlike Apple's.

Actually, in a way, it is. All Microsoft has to do is revoke your application's signing certificate and Windows Defender will prevent it from running on Windows computers. Apple does the same thing with Notarization and Gatekeeper on macOS. If they choose to revoke your signing certificate, Gatekeeper will prevent your software from running on macOS. That means if you do, say or compete with something that Microsoft…

How come I can run so much software compiled from source then?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#62

Post by wruza »

gary_0 wrote: post #24
jacknews wrote: post #16

"It's for your safety and security" Words that should send a chill down every spine. It's obviously just a monopoly. They could easily have an 'allow sideloading' option in the OS, and those that are happy with Apple's curation can leave it off, and everyone else can turn it on.

Monopoly? How about digital feudalism. "We've put ourselves in charge of protecting you, so we're going to help ourselves to a portion of everyone's gold, and make sure none of the serfs are up to anything we don't approve of."

This is incorrect. Apple doesn’t force you to buy iphone, and there is plenty of alternatives.

Personally, I’d like to take full control over my iphone. And create apps for myself the way I see fit. But I’m afraid that with sideloading allowed, most software vendors will go sideloading-only. That means, nobody will have any control over their app’s privilege requests, behavior and other security related things.

Basically my concern is that when I need a “ruler app”, I just install it and am sure it couldn’t even be published with sms access request. Now with wild-west sideloading this restriction is over, so everyone and their dog will nag you to allow access to AB, calls, mic, etc. All dark patterns will break loose.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#63

Post by heavyset_go »

newaccount74 wrote: post #52
miramba wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

The security on the iPhone is from the app sandbox, not from app review. It's trivial to get something past app review (eg. look at casino apps that were disguised as games) On the Mac, staying on the Mac App Store makes sense because it is the easiest way to enforce you only install sandboxed apps. On iOS, that's not going to be necessary, because every app on iOS is sandboxed.

> On the Mac, staying on the Mac App Store makes sense because it is the easiest way to enforce you only install sandboxed apps.

As an aside, I do believe you can use sandboxd with apps outside of the App Store, someone just has to write security policies for them.

This page suggests that Apple might want to deprecate use of sandboxd in favor of just the App Store[1], though.

[1] https://codeberg.org/valpackett/rusty-sandbox

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#64

Post by andai »

aikinai wrote: post #58
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

Are they real downsides or just excuses cooked up by Apple to increase profits, and accepted by apple users to minimize cognitive dissonance?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#65

Post by onlypositive »

aikinai wrote: post #58
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit.

When was the last time you asked the builders association if you could remodel your kitchen?

When was the last time you asked Honda if you could put new mags on your car?

This whole idea that devices aren't owned when you purchase them is asinine and and insult to humanity.

Your counter arguments that it's new in the industry is simply due to the fact they thought they could get away with it. Not because they thought it was their right.

You don't see Klein putting limits on what nails you can use with a hammer but you can bet your ass they would if they could.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#66

Post by politician »

aikinai wrote: post #58
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

> it’s not even how the industry started

Which industry? The very earliest computers ran software written by end-users.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#67

Post by fbdab103 »

1letterunixname wrote: post #13

Sons of beaches! I'm moving to Europe across the pond. Swims faster I would expect it to be piloted in one region first and then phase across regions. It's not exactly something you want to YOLO and deploy to the entire world fleet all at once with customer devices and server infrastructure.

I am wondering if I could take a trip to Europe, side-load an app, and return to the states. Would Apple suddenly geo-block my already installed application?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#68

Post by AlfeG »

syrrim wrote: post #18
josephcsible wrote: post #2

Hasn't Apple always said the reason they don't allow sideloading was that it'd be impossible without compromising security? So are they claiming their European iDevices won't be secure anymore, or are they admitting they were lying before and that the real reason was nothing but greed?

They're presumably claiming that european devices will be less secure.

Or usability of this feature would be so frustrating, that no one will use. Constant security popups on every start, very limited available API for apps, etc...

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#69

Post by auggierose »

ihatepython wrote: post #59
miramba wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the same way, but not anymore. The amount and variety of attacks on the devices have increased too much in the last years. The device could be encrypted, money could be stolen, some malware could sit silently and do surveillance for who knows. I always wanted to install software on my iPhone without the manufacturing company deciding what I can and can not have (according to californian standards!), b…

I used to think like you, but not anymore. I am not interested in installing random software from other people, I want to install my own software to be able to have full control over my own device. I don't care about 'regular users'. I care about myself.

You can do that already.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#70

Post by vivegi »

From the article

> In addition, developers may have to pay extra if they want their apps to be available outside of the iOS App Store, Gurman says.

The statement is a bit ambiguous. Is it pay Apple extra or pay extra to the 3rd party to have their app listed in the 3rd party app store?

The former doesn't sound right; It is probably FUD.

Logically, a 3rd party app store could compete on significantly reduced fees relative to Apple (as one of the strategies). Those conscious of the quantum of current fees then have options of listing their app on both the Apple app store and the 3rd party store as part of their distribution strategy. Customers who trust the Apple appstore would get their app from there and those who like a 3rd party app store would get it from there. The app developer would have reduced their total fees (for distribution). Even if there are signup fees, the share of revenues that Apple is today taking away from the developer would go down in absolute terms with a 3rd party store.

As far as the consumer is concerned, this becomes an OS setting like 'default browser/default text editor etc.,'.

Apple sticking to only the Apple App Store stance is only raising the cost for consumers. Consumers in other geographies will also wake up. Eventually.

Post reply on HN