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TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

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Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#181

Post by micromacrofoot »

bagels wrote: post #174
micromacrofoot wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blamed content recommendation algorithms specifically. They blindly amplify a lot of problems, and I'm not sure they can be fixed broadly enough to avoid this. We've seen this time and time again at this point. There are so many examples, notably youtube has a problem with accidentally radicalizing terrorists . It seems we've discovered that there's a good amount of value in looking for content rather than mindless…

Right, but showing all posts in chronological order is a "content recommendation" algorithm. Is that amplifying problems too?

This seems like pedantry with no purpose, if my boss asked me to create an algorithm that recommended content I'm certain that they would absolutely not mean a list of chronologically ordered content. Do I really need to specificity that I'm talking about algorithms that recommend content using algorithmically presumed user interests based on aggregated behavior data?

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#182

Post by tracker1 »

biohax2015 wrote: post #46
cloudking wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't keep them off it. If you don't provide them access, they can get access on their friend's devices. The key is education, you have to explain to your kids how these services works, how they are optimized for content engagement to show ads, how they mine your data, and what kinds of things they should look out for and avoid (like misinformation, catfishing, grooming, viral stupidity etc)

As if an 11-year-old will absorb any of that...

You'd be surprised what an 11 year old can understand when you talk to them like a person.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#183

Post by tracker1 »

nineplay wrote: post #23
4gotunameagain wrote: post #7

I don't know how true it is, but allegedly[1] the algorithm of tiktok in china is tuned to promote achievements and education, while in the western world it promotes debauchery and stupidity. Doesn't take a huge leap to think it could be intentional.. [1] https://www.opindia.com/2022/07/tiktok-china-engineering-oth...

It's the conspiracy theory I 100% believe in. I don't think the reason to ban TikTok is that it gathers information, I think the reason to ban it is that its ranking algorithm is deliberately destructive. Maybe it's a coincidence that all the dangerous stunts and vandalism "pranks" come from TikTok and not Meta and Twitter, but I don't buy it. I'm leftist liberal and I have no particular paranoia about China, but I'm…

On the last bit... I don't believe they deliberately created and released it, I do believe it was likely a lab leak, and likely negligence. There were a few similar protocol breaches with sensitive materials the prior two years. I also do think that any knowledge to be had was covered up for political reasons. Deny and cover-up, it's what major governments do.

I do think that through malice or neglegence, that tiktok's algorithm is harmful to children.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#184

Post by lnsru »

harvey9 wrote: post #47
lnsru wrote: post #21

The question is how to keep kids off social media. I am very thankful neighbor mom, who bought her son a smart watch and not a cheap android phone. Good example for other kids. It’s clear, that departments with lots of clever people are doing to lock young kids in the phones. And only parents can protect them.

Tiktok is available on Android and Apple phones. Not sure what the significance of Android is in your post. You can even get tiktok on Apple Watches with a bit of effort.

Because some parents can’t afford iPhones in Germany.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#185

Post by lnsru »

cloudking wrote: post #41
lnsru wrote: post #21

The question is how to keep kids off social media. I am very thankful neighbor mom, who bought her son a smart watch and not a cheap android phone. Good example for other kids. It’s clear, that departments with lots of clever people are doing to lock young kids in the phones. And only parents can protect them.

You can't keep them off it. If you don't provide them access, they can get access on their friend's devices. The key is education, you have to explain to your kids how these services works, how they are optimized for content engagement to show ads, how they mine your data, and what kinds of things they should look out for and avoid (like misinformation, catfishing, grooming, viral stupidity etc)

I am pretty sure, there are enough adults, that have no idea what social networks do. I am pretty sure also, that kids are not really ready for explanation of complex technical functionality. They do not have enough math background and probabilities come way too late in school.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#186

Post by cloudking »

lnsru wrote: post #185
cloudking wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't keep them off it. If you don't provide them access, they can get access on their friend's devices. The key is education, you have to explain to your kids how these services works, how they are optimized for content engagement to show ads, how they mine your data, and what kinds of things they should look out for and avoid (like misinformation, catfishing, grooming, viral stupidity etc)

I am pretty sure, there are enough adults, that have no idea what social networks do. I am pretty sure also, that kids are not really ready for explanation of complex technical functionality. They do not have enough math background and probabilities come way too late in school.

I'm not suggesting doing a complex technical explanation, simply explaining to them at a high level how these products are advertising driven, how they can become addictive, what are the safety risks etc is better than not explaining anything to them.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#187

Post by Jochim »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #169
Jochim wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did consider that. Traffic discrimination certainly occurs. However, I don't believe it's presence supports the claim in this case. The original claim is that Douyin promotes "wholesome" educational content, whereas TikTok is manipulating the west with pornography and other depravities. Anecdotal observations gathered through the web UI of each app, as an anonymous user, were that Douyin presented "pornographic" co…

Think about it a bit more clearly. Douyin in china might be entirely different than the douyin you see when you check it out with a western ip. By checking douyin.com from my device, my ip and my advertising fingerprint, I cannot have any clue how douyin behaves if I download it from a chinese phone, in china.

I clearly state that possibility in my comment and explain why I think it's unlikely.

The base claim was that ByteDance was pushing sexualised content on TikTok while policing it on Douyin. This makes zero sense given that TikTok's web content was sanitised. Douyin being awash with sexualised content implies an audience for that content in China, further weakening the argument that this is some sort of targeted attack.

The alternative is that Douyin thirst traps are some sort of co-ordinated attack on the west. Despite not being available in the western app or translated in any way.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#188

Post by Jochim »

owisd wrote: post #151
Jochim wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't pushing suicide videos specifically. Like most feed driven social media platforms, a video gets some engagement and it appears in the feeds of some users as a result. If it gets flagged or reported they take it down. TikTok does actively take down content that violates their guidelines. Children are much more likely to come across nudity or porn on Twitter/Instagram.

It's clearly doing some categorisation to curate individual recommendations rather than simply showing the same trending videos to everyone.

Of course. I let "some users" do a bit too much work in my previous comment.

The point was that they're not doing anything that the other platforms aren't doing.

They seem to do a fair bit to identify content that breaks their guidelines. To the point that users often make up alternative terms for sensitive topics e.g. Nazis become Yahtzees/N@zi and suicide becomes unalive. The belief is that TikTok flags videos with these terms and may remove them outright or downrank them in the recommendation algorithm.

There's a lot more outright pornography on Twitter and Instagram than TikTok.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#189

Post by s0rce »

Dig1t wrote: post #168
phendrenad2 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning an app because it's controlled by a person or persons with ideas you don't like.

The CCP is more than "a person". The CCP is an adversarial government with a strong incentive to weaken the US. Talking about the CCP as if it were just some people with different ideas is not a good faith argument.

Facebook was effectively taken over by Russia, while it wasn't run by them they facilitated it.

Re: TikTok’s algorithm keeps pushing suicide to vulnerable kids

#190

Post by bagels »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #181
bagels wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but showing all posts in chronological order is a "content recommendation" algorithm. Is that amplifying problems too?

This seems like pedantry with no purpose, if my boss asked me to create an algorithm that recommended content I'm certain that they would absolutely not mean a list of chronologically ordered content. Do I really need to specificity that I'm talking about algorithms that recommend content using algorithmically presumed user interests based on aggregated behavior data?

So, recommending content in any of all possible ways is harmful? Or are there some ways that are not harmful (eg filtering out things relating to suicide)?

It's not pedantry without purpose. The logical conclusion to algorithms are bad is the outlawing of all social media and news sites.

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