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Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

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Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#61

Post by Towaway69 »

wnkrshm wrote: post #51
Towaway69 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've switched to thinking consumerism is more of a problem than capitalism. Capitalism is just the producer, if what capitalism produced isn't consumered, certain things won't be produced. Additionally consumerism is something that we all can influence with our credit cards. Capitalism is largely controlled by large nameless corporations.

Problem is: The larger the wallet, the larger the vote. Also, consumers get manipulated to buy into black boxes all the time. Nobody wants to know how their sausage is made but everyone would buy one. A company that is perfectly transparent about their supply chain would fail.

Well yes and no, in not purchasing something I am also making a statement.

Manipulation has to do with education and sources of information. But as long as the notion that happiness can only be found in purchasing products, then not much will change.

Perhaps poverty can be a good thing.

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#62

Post by tourgen »

safety1st wrote: post #7

His philosophy doesn't resonate with me. Broadly speaking, since the industrial revolution scientific and technological progress has been about increasing productivity and available energy. This has had profoundly positive effects on our lives but in a developed country it's not obvious that becoming another order of magnitude more productive will automatically lead to people having even better lives. In the advanced…

[dead]

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#63

Post by rayiner »

RandomLensman wrote: post #33
boxed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of purpose is the core thing I think. If you have that, then isolation solves itself, and obesity might very well solve itself too. Lack of purpose is also the consequence of not being able to even think of a brighter future. Not seeing what humanity COULD be and working towards it.

Why should it be impossible to think of a brighter future? Maybe humans should be living like gods, not worried about diseases, the environment, etc. Maybe humans should strive to become the dominant species in the universe? Why should the current "protestant work ethic" (in a Max Weber sense) guide us - hedonism might also have something to each us.

We tried hedonism as a guiding principle over and over in the 20th century. Whereas Protestant work ethic gave us america, hedonism gave us the aids epidemic, over 100,000 drug overdoses annually, a generation of men that have opted out of adulthood, and the need to import people from non-hedonist countries just to keep the population stable. Enjoy your antibiotic resistant STDs.

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#64

Post by loonginthetooth »

anovikov wrote: post #24
boxed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of purpose is the core thing I think. If you have that, then isolation solves itself, and obesity might very well solve itself too. Lack of purpose is also the consequence of not being able to even think of a brighter future. Not seeing what humanity COULD be and working towards it.

Lack of purpose is inevitable and unfixable. In the world where success is infinitely scalable as we are living in the information age, most people are doomed to uselessness no matter what. Trick is how to help them get over it. Obesity is a medical problem and will be solved by rather trivial medical means very soon, at least on that front, future is bright.

You should review the psychological literature around sense of purpose. Basically every study ever conducted on humans has concluded that mental health is more or less impossible without a sense of purpose. The experts in this field say it's very likely that "helping them get over it" is either impossible or close enough that we'll never figure it out.

If, as you say, lack of purpose is inevitable and unfixable, many decades of research says humanity is doomed.

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#65

Post by andrekandre »

Towaway69 wrote: post #59
Kbelicius wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalism is just the producer I'm having difficulty parsing this part. What does this mean?

For me there are two parts at play: consumerism and capitalism, without one, neither the other. If consumers don't purchase the products produced by the capitalist factories then the system would come to a standstill. (I am thinking of the companies running/ordering from the factories not necessarily the factories themselves, i.e. Chinese factory.) This means that as a consumer, I can influence the system by not purc…

  > If consumers don't purchase the products produced by the capitalist factories then the system would come to a standstill.
thats interesting... so you are saying that it is capitalism itself presupposes that consumers exist, and without it you can't have capitalism...?

it kind of makes one ask which came first...

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#66

Post by eli_gottlieb »

rayiner wrote: post #63
RandomLensman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be impossible to think of a brighter future? Maybe humans should be living like gods, not worried about diseases, the environment, etc. Maybe humans should strive to become the dominant species in the universe? Why should the current "protestant work ethic" (in a Max Weber sense) guide us - hedonism might also have something to each us.

We tried hedonism as a guiding principle over and over in the 20th century. Whereas Protestant work ethic gave us america, hedonism gave us the aids epidemic, over 100,000 drug overdoses annually, a generation of men that have opted out of adulthood, and the need to import people from non-hedonist countries just to keep the population stable. Enjoy your antibiotic resistant STDs.

> We tried hedonism as a guiding principle over and over in the 20th century.

[citation needed]

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#67

Post by anovikov »

What changed in early 1970s is the energy crisis. Economic growth before 1973 was about finding new ways to burn more and more fossil fuels to make stuff: US GDP increased 2.1x between 1953 and 1973 while final energy consumption increased 2.01x, barely any improvement in energy efficiency (4.5% in 20 years).

Between 2001 and 2021, GDP indeed grew less, by only 46.5%, but energy consumption grew by only 1.8%, resulting in 44% growth in energy efficiency.

Same trend is the case worldwide. Progress is slow because we have moved from extensive to intensive economy, learning how to do more with less.

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#68

Post by RandomLensman »

rayiner wrote: post #63
RandomLensman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be impossible to think of a brighter future? Maybe humans should be living like gods, not worried about diseases, the environment, etc. Maybe humans should strive to become the dominant species in the universe? Why should the current "protestant work ethic" (in a Max Weber sense) guide us - hedonism might also have something to each us.

We tried hedonism as a guiding principle over and over in the 20th century. Whereas Protestant work ethic gave us america, hedonism gave us the aids epidemic, over 100,000 drug overdoses annually, a generation of men that have opted out of adulthood, and the need to import people from non-hedonist countries just to keep the population stable. Enjoy your antibiotic resistant STDs.

What do you define as hedonism and its philosophical roots/components?

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#69

Post by kelipso »

Dalewyn wrote: post #54
h0l0cube wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and enough that you don’t need to deal with other people (what hell is, to wit) This is actually a new phenomenon. I'm not sure if it's just because I'm older, but I've literally grown to see this shift in mindset. There was a time when it was common to invite neighbors over for dinner, now more often than not, it seems like people want to have bigger fences and less interaction with their community. Meanwhile, all…

A lot of people, myself included, get tired of dealing with people as we get older. We have to deal with people for the majority of our lives, especially during our schooling and working years. Once we've accumulated enough to retire into the countryside with no need to give a fuck to anyone it becomes a very appealing change of scenery.

The question is why a lot of people get "tired of dealing with people". Was that even a thing in most of history? Is there some subconcious cost-benefit analysis their brain is working out where solitary activities are more enjoyable for them? Probably. There's infinite entertainment at our fingertips these days.

Re: Make the future bright again: On building a new philosophy of progress

#70

Post by cheeseomlit »

RandomLensman wrote: post #68
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried hedonism as a guiding principle over and over in the 20th century. Whereas Protestant work ethic gave us america, hedonism gave us the aids epidemic, over 100,000 drug overdoses annually, a generation of men that have opted out of adulthood, and the need to import people from non-hedonist countries just to keep the population stable. Enjoy your antibiotic resistant STDs.

What do you define as hedonism and its philosophical roots/components?

Epicureanism perhaps? The hedonist mindset is certainly not novel to the 20th century as that poster seems to imply- Though I largely agree with their characterization of it, as its popularity seems to accompany periods of societal decline- Though whether it is a cause or a symptom is hard to say
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