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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

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Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#151

Post by rayiner »

jimmygrapes wrote: post #132
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

No argument here but I feel like you used penguins as an example knowing full well someone would respond with "oh yeah well penguins are well documented to exhibit homosexual behaviors!!" I mean of all possible mammals to choose as an example for your point (presuming in good faith that your actual point was as stated), penguin is an unusual choice. Maybe you just happened to have penguins in mind as an example of a…

I started with lions and then switched to penguins because of Happy Feet and forgot to change the “mammals” part.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#152

Post by rayiner »

antiterra wrote: post #114
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

I don’t think you thought this through any further once you felt you had a somewhat rational construct that meshed with your comfort zone. Human behavior has massive amounts of variation even within a culture, both sex and gender traits inhabit overlapping bell curves. Is there a biological reason for why dresses are considered feminine in the US, and states are constructing laws restricting cross gender usage of the…

That doesn’t mean that gender is socially constructed, it means that we have overlaid social constructs on top of gender. Which is a point nobody disagrees with.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#153

Post by barrysteve »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #22
kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

We don't need the word gender.

Behaviour and norms used to be called 'manners'. Men bow, women courtesy. Princes and princesses.

Abstracting out a 'gender norm' across all cultures is a doomed exercise. There's too many different tones (genders) trying to be contained in the one song.

The vast majority of western humanity fits in man/woman straight spiritual manners.

Bikeshedding over gender definitions is something worth forgetting from the past ten years.

Let the third and fourth and fifth 'gender norms' be what they may.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#154

Post by swalling »

prepend wrote: post #139
swalling wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals. For instance: there are gay penguins where two males will adopt eggs to hatch and raise chicks. Homosexuality and associated behavior changes are observed in a wide array of species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Conservatives trying to use biology to argue that gender and sex are fully e…

> It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals I don’t think anyone claims it is completely deterministic. But it is very significant, to the extent that is may as well as be completely for purposes of discussion or publishing papers. While there are female lions that act in an atypical manner, the vast majority act similarly enough to say something like “female l…

Right, it's useful, realistic, and mostly uncontroversial to assume that there are typical vs. atypical sex differences in behavior in basically any population.

The problem is there are a ton of people who try to use that fact to justify forcing everyone to fit the typical trend. "Most people are right hand dominant, so everyone should learn to write right handed or be punished" is the milder historical example. The worst case scenario is "it's legally defensible to murder someone because they don't conform to expected gender roles" https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/member-...

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#155

Post by swalling »

rayiner wrote: post #131
swalling wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals. For instance: there are gay penguins where two males will adopt eggs to hatch and raise chicks. Homosexuality and associated behavior changes are observed in a wide array of species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Conservatives trying to use biology to argue that gender and sex are fully e…

If your homosexuality, which is biologically rooted, is associated with behavior changes, doesn’t that support the conclusion that gendered behavior is rooted in biology rather than socially constructed?

Only if you're dumb enough to assume that all or most of behavior is biologically determined, instead of being a complex mix of biology, culture, and learned individual patterns that produces a spectrum of individual expression.

The question isn't "is gendered behavior rooted in biology?" it's "how much / to what degree?" and the honest answer is, we don't really know with confidence, especially when it comes to humans. The fact that Western culture seems to be currently undergoing a Cambrian explosion when it comes to gender expression contributes to how hard it is to answer this question. Unfortunately that's also why people are anxious and waging culture wars about it.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#156

Post by RajT88 »

xupybd wrote: post #138
RajT88 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep reading the post! You'll get there.

I'm sorry. I have read the post and I don't understand what you are referring to.

It is in the following three sentences from the one you quoted.

It's not an argument about scale. "Dogs Playing Poker" is not based on anything real.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#157

Post by throwaway675309 »

psychphysic wrote: post #40
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

I hear this reasoning often but never see it being applied in practice. For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial? Similarly if gender and sex are entirely distinct. Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles? Afterall what does it mean to change gender if differing social attitudes to gender ought be extinguished?

Seriously? If you have single sex sports, then there's a disproportionate representation among the sexes. If you can only televise the top 100 athletes in a given sport how many of that percentage do you think will be male versus female?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#158

Post by Rebelgecko »

swalling wrote: post #123
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals. For instance: there are gay penguins where two males will adopt eggs to hatch and raise chicks. Homosexuality and associated behavior changes are observed in a wide array of species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Conservatives trying to use biology to argue that gender and sex are fully e…

If one penguin is trans, they could both be straight.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#159

Post by [deleted] »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #158
swalling wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not true that biological sex is completely deterministic in the behavior of non-human animals. For instance: there are gay penguins where two males will adopt eggs to hatch and raise chicks. Homosexuality and associated behavior changes are observed in a wide array of species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Conservatives trying to use biology to argue that gender and sex are fully e…

If one penguin is trans, they could both be straight.

[deleted]

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#160

Post by xupybd »

RajT88 wrote: post #156
xupybd wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. I have read the post and I don't understand what you are referring to.

It is in the following three sentences from the one you quoted. It's not an argument about scale. "Dogs Playing Poker" is not based on anything real.

Sorry I'm still lost.
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