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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

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Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#21

Post by DoctorOW »

giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

Gender identity is a subset of identity as a whole, something animals don't have the self awareness for. Pretty much every term for referring to someone in human society is influenced by gender.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#22

Post by cantSpellSober »

kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article:

> Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman

> ...Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures

Sex needs a definition too:

> Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1966, when a French zoologist discovered that the rainbow agama lizard did, in fact, rely on an environmental factor to determine sex

...no need to regurgitate the "anti-woke" talking points on this one.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#23

Post by iagooar »

kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

> animals do not have socially constructed genders

Do people do?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#24

Post by rsynnott »

mseepgood wrote: post #12
kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

> animals do not have socially constructed genders. How would we know? Are we able to communicate with animals yet?

If you define socially constructed to mean a _human_ sort of society (which is probably how most people will read this, and the most reasonable way to read it), then they don't by definition.

I suspect to some extent you could argue this either way for social insects, however; is their 'society' so biologically programmed in that the pseudo-gender identities it _appears_ to create don't count?

There are also some primates which have, if not societies, things which look suspiciously like societies, of course. Still, the statement is probably basically true, with a little fuzziness around the edges.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#25

Post by rayiner »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #22
kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different.

Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transition from childhood to adulthood. But the fact that e.g. a bar mitzvah is a cultural construct doesn’t mean that the behavioral and social changes accompanying puberty aren’t rooted in biology.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#26

Post by ben_w »

giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

As gender dimorphism can influence external characteristics, I assume it can also influence personalities. If animals have any senses of identity (I think at least some non-human animals do) or beliefs about what their bodies "should" look like (passing the mirror test at least weakly implies so), then likewise.

How much any of this is present in different species, and how much the range of personality traits can diverge from the other traits, I wouldn't want to even guess.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#27

Post by version_five »

giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

I'll probably get flagged - I see it more like being a goth or a skater or whatever. Identity is something people like to have generally, it's normal, but somehow it gets politicised in certain cases. I don't think a relationship to sex has to enter into it, it's more like a justification maybe?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#28

Post by dahfizz »

capableweb wrote: post #17
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

> ie why don't animals need them Is there a reason to believe it doesn't exists in animals as well? Homosexuality is common in many species, are some individual animals in those species more prone to homosexual "relationships" than others? If so, maybe those animals are feeling some sort of expression by their gender identity based on their preference. I'm guessing gender identities serve the same purpose as individu…

I thought gender and sexuality are totally independent?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#29

Post by rsynnott »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #20
ben_w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad? No, it is just a consequence of complex reality butting up against a "common sense" (including the quote marks) derived from incorrectly assuming that words accurately and unambiguously carve up reality. If biologists instead used a different common definition such as "female == able to get pregnant, otherwise male" then birds would be all be male, and seahorses wouldn't be associated with the sentence "weird bi…

Back when I was taught Biology in school, “female“ meant “having the larger gamete”.

Huh, is this actually universal? I'd have guessed there'd be at least one or two exceptions.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#30

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

capableweb wrote: post #17
giantg2 wrote: post #11

"(a system that’s distinct from our diverse gender identities)" Please don't take this the wrong way, this is a genuine question. Is there an explaination somewhere of what purpose gender identities serve and what benefits that provides (ie why don't animals need them)? Aside from reproduction, I don't see how gender would really influence anything.

> ie why don't animals need them Is there a reason to believe it doesn't exists in animals as well? Homosexuality is common in many species, are some individual animals in those species more prone to homosexual "relationships" than others? If so, maybe those animals are feeling some sort of expression by their gender identity based on their preference. I'm guessing gender identities serve the same purpose as individu…

What does gender have to do with sexuality have to do with gender?
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