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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

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Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#111

Post by paulddraper »

mantas wrote: post #75
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

It's funny that many languages don't have this „gender vs sex“ separation. For example in my native language there's just one word to describe man/woman option. Some people try to bend over and invent new terms. That doesn't play well with claiming that somehow this „gender vs sex“ separation is not a new cultural phenomena.

English didn't have it either until relatively recently.

The current usage of "gender" was introduced by American psychologist John Money in the latter half of the 20th century.

It's popularity in common speech was accelerated by "sex" becoming a synonym to "copulation," causing "gender" being used as a polite alternative.

--

But how is gender actually defined? Even now, the Oxford Dictionary: "gender: the male sex or the female sex"

https://www.google.com/search?q=gender+definition

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#112

Post by burnished »

rayiner wrote: post #25
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

> ...Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures

The reason to bring it up was in the comment you replied to. This reaction seems very knee jerk.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#113

Post by burnished »

mseepgood wrote: post #12
kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

> animals do not have socially constructed genders. How would we know? Are we able to communicate with animals yet?

Probably just simple observation - if culture was an element then we would expect to see diverging behaviors in different groups. Wouldnt require communicating.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#114

Post by antiterra »

rayiner wrote: post #25
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

The assertion that gender is “socially constructed” does merit the anti-woke talking point. Mammals have social roles based on biological sex: female penguins do one thing, male penguins do a different thing. Gender in humans isn’t fundamentally different. Like everything else, humans have layered social and cultural constructs on top of sex and gender. For example, cultures have different ways of marking the transit…

I don’t think you thought this through any further once you felt you had a somewhat rational construct that meshed with your comfort zone. Human behavior has massive amounts of variation even within a culture, both sex and gender traits inhabit overlapping bell curves. Is there a biological reason for why dresses are considered feminine in the US, and states are constructing laws restricting cross gender usage of them, but kurtas or sarongs are acceptably masculine elsewhere?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#115

Post by burnished »

iagooar wrote: post #23
kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

> animals do not have socially constructed genders Do people do?

Consider the various expected roles of men and women across time and culture, specifically where those expectations change as a consequence of the culture changing.

If people did not then you wouldnt really expect any differences that could not be better accounted for by environmental factors.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#116

Post by giantg2 »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #109
giantg2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that historically. However, I would argue that those restrictions were actually by sex as changing gender was not really an option back then. Even if one tried, I assume most cultures would still enforce those ideas based on sex. We have very few restrictions on gender today, and the ones we do have still tend to exclude transgender individuals (combat roles, some levels of some sports, some bathrooms).…

Quite a few places have gendered dress codes (still!), among other things. And you appear to be talking mostly about the US and similar countries, much of the rest of the world is different.

Yeah, I am mostly taking about US and similar countries. But changing gender in one of those other countries would likely be moot, right?

Hmm, I haven't really seen gendered dress codes aside from schools (which could/should be rewritten to be gender neutral) or the "entertainment" industry (which is likely to descriminate regardless of dress code).

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#117

Post by giantg2 »

ben_w wrote: post #110
giantg2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that. Then is this just an inherent cultural need for labeling of in-groups vs out-groups, or potential mates vs non-mates? In today's world, there's very little restriction on gender, and most of those restrictions do not change based on changing gender. For example, I can shave my legs and identify as a man, woman, or some other gender, but how does that change what I can and can't do?

You're asking the wrong person. When I first read about the topic in the newspaper aged about 13, noticing the existence of trans women despite the existence of sexism (transitioning to man comes with a pay rise, transitioning to woman with a pay cut) was enough by itself to make me realise that there was a deeper issue, but not to understand it. For myself, I don't have any sense of gender identity; if we lived in a…

"(transitioning to man comes with a pay rise, transitioning to woman with a pay cut)"

Do you have some details on this?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#118

Post by giantg2 »

paulddraper wrote: post #105
tlogan wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason gender roles have evolved differently can be attributed to the costs associated with reproduction for each sex. In our species, females tend to bear significantly higher reproductive costs than males. For example, men have the ability to father multiple offspring simultaneously, whereas women must devote substantial time and energy to pregnancy and childbirth. These disparities in reproductive investment h…

That, and other physical differences. Men are on average larger and stronger, making them more capable of manual labor.

It seems this is also a blocker to integrating sports. It seems the whole trans people playing on whatever team would be moot if we didn't have sex/gender discriminate teams.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#119

Post by rsynnott »

giantg2 wrote: post #116
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few places have gendered dress codes (still!), among other things. And you appear to be talking mostly about the US and similar countries, much of the rest of the world is different.

Yeah, I am mostly taking about US and similar countries. But changing gender in one of those other countries would likely be moot, right? Hmm, I haven't really seen gendered dress codes aside from schools (which could/should be rewritten to be gender neutral) or the "entertainment" industry (which is likely to descriminate regardless of dress code).

> But changing gender in one of those other countries would likely be moot, right?

Things are more complicated than you might necessarily expect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran

(It's not just Iran; a number of countries, often extremely conservative countries, have _some_ form of cultural recognition of non-gender-normative people. Hijira in India would be a more complex example.)

> Hmm, I haven't really seen gendered dress codes aside from schools (which could/should be rewritten to be gender neutral) or the "entertainment" industry (which is likely to descriminate regardless of dress code).

Ever been in a non-casual office?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#120

Post by ben_w »

giantg2 wrote: post #117
ben_w wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking the wrong person. When I first read about the topic in the newspaper aged about 13, noticing the existence of trans women despite the existence of sexism (transitioning to man comes with a pay rise, transitioning to woman with a pay cut) was enough by itself to make me realise that there was a deeper issue, but not to understand it. For myself, I don't have any sense of gender identity; if we lived in a…

"(transitioning to man comes with a pay rise, transitioning to woman with a pay cut)" Do you have some details on this?

On the gender pay gap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

Or did you mean something else?

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