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Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

nautil.us

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Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#141

Post by giantg2 »

ramblenode wrote: post #129
giantg2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that historically. However, I would argue that those restrictions were actually by sex as changing gender was not really an option back then. Even if one tried, I assume most cultures would still enforce those ideas based on sex. We have very few restrictions on gender today, and the ones we do have still tend to exclude transgender individuals (combat roles, some levels of some sports, some bathrooms).…

> I assume most cultures would still enforce those ideas based on sex. Hijra is a third gender used by people in India that was first documented several thousand years ago [0]. There are similar third genders in other Southeast Asian countries. Galli: a priest/priestess in Hellenistic Greece and Rome that wasn't considered to be man or woman [1]. Muxe: third gender of Mexico that may have pre-dated Spanish colonizati…

Very interesting. Thanks!

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#142

Post by prepend »

garte wrote: post #37
kleiba wrote: post #9

Biologists use the word “female” to describe organs or organisms that produce eggs, and “male” for those that produce sperm; animals do not have socially constructed genders. Sad times when such disclaimers are necessary.

I'm impressed: the article is about the rich diversity of different sexes in nature (it does not even go into gender) but all you are getting out of it is some anti-woke sentiment? Could you please re-read the article and at least absorb the complexity of sex and biology in nature in general? At least be a bit amazed how little we seem to grasp about reproductive processes even on a biological level. And then maybe e…

I think my biggest complaint about culture war topics is that it makes perfectly normal discussions (“let’s talk about this article”) turn into long back and forth on an unimportant topic like sex vs gender.

I think it’s just a shiri’s scissor [0] to draw energy away from productivity.

[0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#143

Post by closetkantian »

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #126
howdysam123 wrote: post #73

[flagged]

Only a tiny minority of human beings are transgender. Even in cultures where the concept of a third gender is celebrated, it is a rare phenomenon. Canada is the first country to provide census data on transgender and non-binary people: "Of the nearly 30.5 million people in Canada aged 15 and older living in a private household in May 2021, 100,815 were transgender (59,460) or non-binary (41,355), accounting for 0.33%…

"Even in cultures where the concept of a third gender is celebrated, it is a rare phenomenon"...

As someone who lived in Thailand for a few years, I'm going to tell you that you are totally wrong.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#144

Post by prepend »

ben_w wrote: post #120
giantg2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(transitioning to man comes with a pay rise, transitioning to woman with a pay cut)" Do you have some details on this?

On the gender pay gap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap Or did you mean something else?

Are there data on the gender wage gap being different for transgender persons?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#145

Post by giantg2 »

ben_w wrote: post #120
giantg2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(transitioning to man comes with a pay rise, transitioning to woman with a pay cut)" Do you have some details on this?

On the gender pay gap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap Or did you mean something else?

Specifically how the gender pay gap applies to individuals who transitioned, especially controlled on an individual basis and not just in aggregate. See the pre/post changes would be especially interesting.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#146

Post by ptring »

psychphysic wrote: post #40
cantSpellSober wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're describing a difference in sex vs gender. From the linked article: > Gender [...] involves a set of behaviors and norms that shape how men and women act, prescribe how they ought to be, and specify what it means to be a man or a woman > ... Unlike in any other animal, gendered behavior in humans is wildly different across cultures Sex needs a definition too: > Sex appeared to be purely, simply genetic—until 1…

I hear this reasoning often but never see it being applied in practice. For starters why are single sex sports and single sex changing rooms so controversial? Similarly if gender and sex are entirely distinct. Does that not mean that the trans community is the strongest supporter of traditional gender roles? Afterall what does it mean to change gender if differing social attitudes to gender ought be extinguished?

I think you may enjoy this classic text on the topic, it explores these questions in quite some detail: https://janiceraymond.com/the-transsexual-empire

(That page has a link to download the PDF if you're interested, but also here's a taster in the form of a book review at the time it was published: https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-....)

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#147

Post by LoganDark »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #99
SubiculumCode wrote: post #18

Throughout the history of biology, psychology, cognitive science, and neurosciences, there has been a constant back and forth between those who would exaggerate sex differences, and those who would understate sex-differences as purely social constructs with no affect on biology other than what is caused via experienced socializations. The truth is more complicated than any of those extremes. Important differences in…

I also find it interesting that the generally smart and data driven crowd at HN is so ideological driven when it comes to the reality of diversity in sex phenotypes, which are about 1% of the general population, and about 15% of those with autism.

> about 1% of the general population, and about 15% of those with autism

Huh?

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#148

Post by pvaldes »

_pigpen__ wrote: post #55

“Animals don’t have socially defined gender.” Perhaps, but they can definitely have have socially defined sex. Clownfish live in hierarchical units. The dominant fish is an aggressive female. When she dies, the next dominant male will change sex and assume the role. If that isn’t social I don’t know what is. (And that’s one example there are at least a dozen species of fish that can change sex due to external factors…

Those fishes are true hermaphrodytes in fact. Its reproductive organs have a part male and a part female. Both perfectly able to produce functional gametes but not at the same time. Not equivalent to trans people case, really.

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#149

Post by LoganDark »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #31
SubiculumCode wrote: post #18

Throughout the history of biology, psychology, cognitive science, and neurosciences, there has been a constant back and forth between those who would exaggerate sex differences, and those who would understate sex-differences as purely social constructs with no affect on biology other than what is caused via experienced socializations. The truth is more complicated than any of those extremes. Important differences in…

FYI, I am a scientist that studies sex and gender in autism.

> sex and gender in autism

How does it differ from people who aren't autistic? Honest question, I'm autistic and happen to be transgender internally (but not externally) ...

Re: Animal Sex Determination Is Weirder Than You Think

#150

Post by SubiculumCode »

Guid_NewGuid wrote: post #122
SubiculumCode wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also find it interesting that the generally smart and data driven crowd at HN is so ideological driven when it comes to the reality of diversity in sex phenotypes, which are about 1% of the general population, and about 15% of those with autism.

Yeah the culture war seems to be seeping in everywhere and particularly badly on these topics as the bulk of comments on this article seem to show. At the boundaries even in humans this stuff gets really fuzzy and has real world implications for people who get barred from their careers or forced to undergo medical procedures to be more easily categorised[0][1]. While it might be a rare scenario (between 0.08% and 1%…

THANK YOU!!!
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