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The Free Software Foundation is dying

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Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#231

Post by dale_glass »

pama wrote: post #227
dale_glass wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was expecting to see this, there is nothing more corporations would like more then to see him gone. Then they can take full control of the FSF, already they have their hands in it. That's amazingly over-optimistic IMO. Stallman hasn't been relevant in decades. Companies don't fear him. The FSF is as far as I can tell politically irrelevant. Just look at even the nerdiest sites: HN, Slashdot, the Linux-centric sub…

Not sure what you mean here. The formal role of RMS in FSF today is not that of a leader (nor president, nor treasury.)

He's a board member with voting rights. The board sets the direction for the FSF, so that's a leadership position.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#232

Post by MaxBarraclough »

bionade24 wrote: post #34

It's crazy that the FSF only stands up for license violations of the GNU project, not all GPL licensed projects. That's the reason the software freedom conservancy was created in the 1st place. RMS' management of the GNU project derailed long ago, from him vetoing for his jokes in project he's not involved anymore, going OT & insulting on mailing lists and often threatening GNU maintainers by stating that their proje…

Both organisations require copyright assignment.

https://sfconservancy.org/assignment/

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#233

Post by ParetoOptimal »

yarg wrote: post #128
kmeisthax wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Orthogonal social issues?" So are we just going to pretend that unauditable, proprietary facial recognition software isn't being actively weaponized against minorities? Like, cops using secret rules to determine guilt would be considered dystopian basically anywhere.

Yes, the issues are completely orthogonal to the effective operation of an open source software foundation. If you want to have a talk about the also completely unrelated issue of facial recognition, we can do that too.

> Yes, the issues are completely orthogonal to the effective operation of an open source software foundation.

Only if you begin by presuming diversity isn't a benefit on it's own.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#234

Post by ParetoOptimal »

ghusto wrote: post #125
bo1024 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical and socially competent leadership is compatible -- actually, well-aligned -- with diverse representation.

> Technical and socially competent leadership is compatible -- actually, well-aligned -- with diverse representation Reality begs to differ. If they're well aligned, where are these people? Have they been oppressed by not being given a chance? Let's see where we are in 20 years when that argument can finally be put to rest (when's the last time you saw a positive _male_ role model in films or other pop-culture, tech-…

> when's the last time you saw a positive _male_ role model in films or other pop-culture, tech-related or otherwise?

Do we live in the same reality?

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#235

Post by ParetoOptimal »

hollowturtle wrote: post #89

>We need more leaders of color, women, LGBTQ representation, and others besides. I can’t really understand where the US is heading with this agenda. As a EU citizen I’m often puzzled and worried, why can’t the sentence just be “We need more competent leaders”? This should imply diversity per se, and btw who decides a place has enough diversity? There will be a diversity judge on workplaces?

> As a EU citizen I’m often puzzled and worried, why can’t the sentence just be “We need more competent leaders”? This should imply diversity per

Confirmation bias and the inertia of continuing to choosing white males for leadership positions mean that there is no such thing as meritocracy.

Even if there were (there won't be), there are issues of representation and opportunity which can only be addressed by actively seeking more diversity.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#236

Post by ParetoOptimal »

t-3 wrote: post #165
ghusto wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've given this some thought before. I think it's born from guilt, you know, because of the messed up history they had. They think that if they change the branch names from master to main, everything's fine now. The irony is that I live in a country where there was also some _very_ messed up history, and the reason things _are_ alright now, is because they don't keep dragging that shit up. Everybody acknowledges that…

The really strange part is that the majority of Americans have no historical connection to that messed up past at all. The group of people whose ancestors were even in the country while slavery was legal or women couldn't vote or before the Civil Rights movement is getting smaller and smaller every year.

> The really strange part is that the majority of Americans have no historical connection to that messed up past at all.

The legacy of all of it is still alive and white americans still benefit from the oppression at the expense of minorities.

Essentially, it was never made right to the benefit of modern white americans... therefore the guilt they feel is founded because at some level they see the benefits of their privilege even if they deny it out loud.

> The group of people whose ancestors were even in the country while slavery was legal or women couldn't vote or before the Civil Rights movement is getting smaller and smaller every year.

Did you know the majority of black Americans couldn't get home loans until about 1990? Even then it was very difficult.

Think about if your great-grandparents, grandparents, and parents all only lived in apartments or didn't have as secure of a housing situation.

What effect might that have on someones upbringing?

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#237

Post by ParetoOptimal »

emu7652 wrote: post #73

>We need more leaders of color, women, LGBTQ representation, and others... That is dangerous mindset, so dangerous that I think the article is just trolling, trying to trigger people. But in case if author was serious, choosing leadership or any position for tha matter, should be based on their vision, skill, the weight of their respect is set community rather that on their sexual orientation, color of their skin, co…

> That is dangerous mindset, so dangerous that I think the article is just trolling, trying to trigger people. But in case if author was serious, choosing leadership or any position for tha matter, should be based on their vision, skill, the weight of their respect is set community rather that on their sexual orientation, color of their skin, country of origin and ect. Discrimination needs to go. And this writing, suggests discrimination based on race or sexuality and gender.

The dangerous mindset is acting as if people with the power of hiring positions are unbiased and don't hire based on soft skills, "culture fit", and other irrational things.

> Discrimination needs to go.

Yes it does, but... it hasn't. The status quo is a heavyweight and inertia pushes it forward... would you have minorities suffer until the mythical future where discrimination doesn't exist comes?

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#238

Post by t-3 »

ParetoOptimal wrote: post #236
t-3 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really strange part is that the majority of Americans have no historical connection to that messed up past at all. The group of people whose ancestors were even in the country while slavery was legal or women couldn't vote or before the Civil Rights movement is getting smaller and smaller every year.

> The really strange part is that the majority of Americans have no historical connection to that messed up past at all. The legacy of all of it is still alive and white americans still benefit from the oppression at the expense of minorities. Essentially, it was never made right to the benefit of modern white americans... therefore the guilt they feel is founded because at some level they see the benefits of their p…

> white americans still benefit from the oppression at the expense of minorities.

No, whites do not benefit from oppression, oppression harms the oppressed. Rich oppressors may benefit, but they are by no means all, or even a significant population group.

The vast majority of Americans are not involved in perpetuating or perpetrating oppression, discrimination, or injustice. Those that are responsible are a small affluent layer that rules our oligarchical society. Spreading the blame to a huge group, which is not even an ethnic group or nationality, but simply a skin color, is ridiculous and benefits only the powerful few.

Racializing political and social discourse is a dialectical trap designed to distract from real solutions to societal problems, and focus people's anger on the 'other'.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#239

Post by bheadmaster »

dang wrote: post #188
bheadmaster wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (fairly short) comment history doesn't really indicate flaming, IMHO. Having strong opinions while having the word "fanaticism" on their profile doesn't seem like a rule violation. If I may, I'd ask you to refrain from such bans until the poster proves a chronic flamer. At least give them a warning first (unless you already did, and they continued, in which case please ignore this comment).

I get why you'd post this because in a way it's a borderline call. In another way it isn't though. If an account shows up with a name like that, only posting on that topic, and showing clear signs of flamewar*, the outcome is unfortunately pretty predictable. I felt like it would be better to just nip the problem in the bud and be clear up front—though I can see that my explanation presupposed too much that it didn't…

Fair enough.

Discrimination ("RMS should go because he's a white male") cannot be fought with more discrimination ("minorities never contributed to free software"), I agree on that wholeheartedly.

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