Live data from Hacker News

The Free Software Foundation is dying

drewdevault.com

111–120 of 247 posts

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#111
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but this is an attempt to spread an agenda" yikes. Consider this: asking Saudi Arabia to let women drive and work any job isn't just a woke agenda. There's a strong practical and economic argument too. If you don't know how Stallman is a strong net negative, you haven't been paying attention, and you certainly haven't seen him in person. I write a bit about this here: https://blog.stuartspence.ca/oh-stallman.html

It's always a little cringe when people write something on here just to advertise their crap, drab, poorly written blogs...

There are no ads. I have a great job. What am I advertising?

This keeps coming up, so I wrote about my experience. HN comments written on the toilet only do so much.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#113
This post is mostly wrong, wrong, wrong.

> Hammering on about “GNU/Linux” nomenclature

Linux is just a kernel, not an OS. It was bundled with the GNU system, which was missing a kernel. See explanation here:

https://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

For many years you could use Debian over the FreeBSD kernel, for example - having the GNU system, plus a bunch of non-GNU software, over another kernel.

These days, maybe we should call them GNU/systemd/Linux systems :-(

> maligning the audience as “useds” rather than “users”

Nowhere on the FSF website do I see that term used (I checked with their search function).

I do see this term on GNU.org, applied to Facebook "users". I think it is not maligning people, it is critiquing behavior, and that is quite appropriate in that context.

> antagonism towards our allies in the open source movement

I hope you mean the Free Software (or FOSS) movement - right?

Anyway, which allies do you mean? I hope you don't suggest that Facebook, Google, Amazon and the like are our allies. Or maybe your conception of "us" is simply different?

> none of this aids the cause.

Ah, but what is "the" cause?

> The pages and pages of dense philosophical essays and poorly organized FAQs do not provide a useful entry point or reference for the community.

It seems you disagree with the content more than you do with the website entry points. It is quite a useful reference; but again, perhaps your "the community" is different.

> As for copyleft, well, it’s no coincidence that many people struggle with the FSF’s approach. ... over 1 million npm packages use a permissive license while fewer than 20,000 use the GPL; cargo sports a half-million permissive packages and another 20,000 or so GPL’d.

1. There's LGPL, which is intended for libraries (and npm packages would typically be that).

2. "Dedicating" software to be free, in the GPL sense, is no trivial matter. Sometimes you just can't do it because you don't own the legal rights; sometimes its because potential commercial users you are interested in will avoid GPLed stuff; and there are other reasons.

But it is the direction we should be converging towards: Software as something that is fundamentally free, period. No more lock-ins and development siloing and other artificial sabotage of software development due to narrow commercial interests.

> The FOSS community is now dominated by people who are beyond the reach of the FSF’s message.

To the extent that's true - _that_ is the problem. And the author is part of that problem. But it's really not that new: In the 1980s and 1990s most of these people were simply mostly interested in closed-source commercial software.

> It’s time for Richard Stallman to go

No.

> and the demographics [Richard Stallman] represents is becoming a minority

Richard Stallman does not represent demographics. His community and institutional positions are not representational, they are based on his theoretical and practical contributions.

> reach out to emerging leaders throughout the FOSS world, and ask them to take charge of the FSF’s mission.

How is this different from how the FSF does recruitment right now? (I don't know, I'm asking)

> The message needs to be made much more accessible and level in tone, and the relationship between free software and open source needs to be reformed so that the FSF and OSI stand together as the pillars at the foundations of our ecosystem.

Let the OSI adopt the FSF's positions, then, and we'll have a "level tone" and everyone will "stand together".

> Decouple the FSF from the GNU project

Interesting. But - how closely are they coupled?

> Develop new copyleft licenses

I'm not a license expert, for sure. But - to the extent that the author's critique is of ease of reading and understanding what the license means, this is at least a worthwhile idea. But to the extent that the author suggests "permissive" licenses instead of freedom-preserving ones, that would be in line with the implied suggestion to just drop the free software philosophy altogether.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#114
The FSF (and GNU) have had plenty of opportunity to be encouraging to new people and ideas but instead they punish you for caring. The FSF office has historically been a revolving door where people enter bright and hopeful and leave disappointed and jaded. The union bargaining unit is mostly powerless. GNU mailing lists (the meta ones like gnu-prog-discuss), are mostly devoid of interesting discussion, preferring endless bikeshedding and resistance to trying new things. Plenty of people who contribute to GNU avoid those lists because they are so toxic. The inescapable founder's syndrome surrounding RMS and conspiratorial thinking that any change is equivalent to corporate takeover stops all change. GNU could be run collectively and democratically, but the old guard prefers to worship the man RMS used to be, when he actually was a brilliant programmer, and let him do whatever. The people who will bring free software into the modern day will come from outside the FSF bubble.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#115
post #4

>It’s time for Richard Stallman to go I was expecting to see this, there is nothing more corporations would like more then to see him gone. Then they can take full control of the FSF, already they have their hands in it. So far many of his predictions have come true and there are a few more that seems to be on their way to happening. What FSF should do is work stop the move to secure boot. Already there are Intel Lap…

> Then they can take full control of the FSF, already they have their hands in it. This is neither good nor bad, so I'm not sure why your whole point seemingly is based on it. Corporations will act in their own self-interests just like everyone else. There are examples of where corporations worked together and it turned out well for all and examples of the opposite happening, so I'm not sure why this is necessarily f…

> Corporations will act in their own self-interests just like everyone else.

Corporations are not part of "everybody", except in insane US law which recognizes corporate "personhood".

In other words: A corporation is not just like, or even remotely like, anybody.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#116

The Free software foundation needs its Martin Luther and Reformation. Stallman has quite literally become the pope of the Free software foundation and we need to remember that like with the Protestant Reformation, the individual has their own, unmediated relationship with free software. There are other apt analogies between the Protestant Reformation and the Free software foundation but I will leave discovering that…

We’re already there. For example, look at the spectrum of licenses free software can fall under.

Most of each represent a return to the PD and Shareware days, only rebraded to modern times.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#117
post #27

> Reform the leadership. It’s time for Richard Stallman to go. > We need more leaders of color, women, LGBTQ representation, and others besides. Stallman is in many ways a problem - but the solution is finding technically and socially competent leadership with a vision that aligns with the core ideologies of the FSF and the ability to lay it out as a coherent long-term plan. Forced diversity has not ever and will not…

Lots of talk about "forced diversity" that ignores the diverse pool of talented people that the FSF has pushed away because they don't think "GNU+Linux" is a hill worth dying on or whatever.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#118
post #64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical and socially competent leadership is compatible -- actually, well-aligned -- with diverse representation.

There's a difference between organic and forced diversity. When someone starts out with bullet-point one devoted to orthogonal social issues and not the actual goals of the foundation and how to reach them, it's fairly clear where they stand.

"Orthogonal social issues?" So are we just going to pretend that unauditable, proprietary facial recognition software isn't being actively weaponized against minorities?

Like, cops using secret rules to determine guilt would be considered dystopian basically anywhere.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#119

The main problem the FSF runs into, over and over, is that they're barking up the wrong tree if their goal is political change (which it's at least stated to be). Drew doesn't really address this directly, although many of the things he points at I would say are related to this. RMS is a big reason why the FSF is the way it is ie. its why their site is a disorganized mess of philosophical ramblings, poorly organized…

FSFE is more effective in this case with it’s public code effort.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#120
post #97

How is the FSF failing? There seems to be far more freedom respecting choices nowadays than in the past and we're now entering the dawn of "free" cpus with RISC-V. I'd also consider that Linux is more widely used than at any time in the past as well. What am I missing?

Those things are happening without much involvement by the FSF – Linux, for example, is famously not an FSF project to the point that some activists tried to popularize the “GNU/Linux” label. I’m not saying that the FSF has no role or that some of the software it supports isn’t incredibly widely used (GCC, etc.) but that it’s seemed to be coasting for years, drifting out of the mainstream even for open source develop…

I see. I must admit to not paying much attention to FSF, but instead other organisations such as EFF seem to be championing consumers' freedoms as opposed to developers' freedoms.

I do think RMS has made some very important comments and insights about how technology is being abused by companies, but I'd agree that he's probably not the best person to be running an organisation - maybe keep him around as a consultant.

Post reply on HN