Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#61

Post by lb1lf » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 6:49 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #31

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

> What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. My understanding is basically all high-capital machinery makes a _lot_ of money from support contracts and repairs. I think…

-This is very much my (anecdotal, but from several companies in the subsea business, ranging from huge multinationals to small fry almost mom-and-pop shops) experience, too: Service work is basically seen as a licence to print money.

Contract negotiations for newbuilds are cutthroat, the most important parameter being price, price and price. Hence margins are as you'd expect.

Except when it comes to service work, as service rates, parts cost &c are hardly ever touched upon in contracts, probably seeing as they will be relevant for the lifetime of the product, which may run for decades.

Hence the contract merely states that the supplier must _provide_ service and parts. Which we do. While we laugh all the way to the bank.

Of course, if you become too greedy, a customer is likely to start sourcing any parts not uniquely made by you elsewhere and try to have whoever they can find locally install them. Hence some sobriety is useful when determining service rates and parts markup, but the general principle is:

You do newbuilds so that you can get a large installed base to reap service income from. Newbuilds are sold at the slimmest of margins, sometimes even at a loss. You'll recoup it when they start using the gear, anyway.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#62

Post by chongli » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 6:55 AM UTC

jezovuk wrote: post #59

chongli wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very difficult but not impossible. Looks like some of those co-ops go back to the 1700s. So that provides one possible solution to the problem: start small with no capital and grow over a period of centuries to become a large co-op. But how do you achieve it today? How do you take a bunch of workers and start a co-op factory that can compete with John Deere?

Credit/VC? Or you start a co-op dairy / farm / repair shop and work for centuries towards arriving at where JD is today (by which time big corps would have moved a few centuries ahead).

Credit is probably the only way. But I don’t see regular banks jumping at the chance to invest in worker co-ops. Maybe a credit union?

VC doesn’t work. Investors want equity for their money.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#63

Post by lb1lf » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:07 AM UTC

heywhatupboys wrote: post #55

GalenErso wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farmers also need to understand animal biology (for those who raise animals) and reproduction, the local, state, and national commodities market (and sometimes the international market too), pests and invasive species (plants, insects, and animals alike) and the diseases they can bring, and hydrology. A modern farmer is an engineer, an economist, a biologist and a wilderness expert all in one.

While I know HN likes to put farmers on a pedistal, and we should all appreciate the people that literally grow our food, the reality isn't that most farmers are "highly educated" in these things, but know barely enough to scrape by

While that is true for most smaller farms - there simply is no way a small farm can afford the capital expenditure of someone who could be working day-to-day spending years in study, it still holds true that farmers by necessity are excellent jacks of all trades. You simply do not make enough money off of the farm to rent professional help whenever something goes wrong.

Just one data point - when the clutch on our 1994 (methinks) Case tractor broke a few years ago, the quoted cost for having a new one installed was close to $5,000. My father-in-law and I spent two days splitting the tractor, refurbishing the clutch using a $250 kit and reassembling it. No expensive or fancy tools, but a lot of headscratching and educated guesses, plus we needed to craft a couple of rather large stands and jigs using timber already on hand.

The $4,750 thus saved is more than we make annually from renting out the fields to a nearby farmer (We just live on the farm, we're not working the land nor having any animals anymore.)

I believe this situation is rather typical on smaller farms - you have to make things work on your own or with the help of friends and neighbours, or you're SOL.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#64

Post by chongli » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:10 AM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #7

But will John Deere do what Apple did? Here’s one example: “Apple shipped me a 79-pound iPhone repair kit to fix a 1.1-ounce battery” https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi... “I’m starting to think Apple doesn’t want us to repair them”

That article is bunk. Louis Rossmann and others in the right to repair community have praised Apple for providing these repair kits. They let you do factory-quality repairs.

What the author of that article doesn’t realize is that all of Apple’s modern phones are waterproof. To achieve that factory seal against liquid ingress requires fancy adhesives. You can’t open these things with a jeweller’s screwdriver. It takes highly specialized equipment to open the device and then reseal it when you’re done replacing the battery.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#65

Post by zamnos » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:12 AM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #63

heywhatupboys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I know HN likes to put farmers on a pedistal, and we should all appreciate the people that literally grow our food, the reality isn't that most farmers are "highly educated" in these things, but know barely enough to scrape by

While that is true for most smaller farms - there simply is no way a small farm can afford the capital expenditure of someone who could be working day-to-day spending years in study, it still holds true that farmers by necessity are excellent jacks of all trades. You simply do not make enough money off of the farm to rent professional help whenever something goes wrong. Just one data point - when the clutch on our 19…

That only saved you $4,750 if your time is worth $0/hr. Assume it was two eight-hour days, times two people, or 32 hours of labor. If you make $149/hr, it's cheaper for you to pay the quoted cost. If you don't, it's cheaper for you to do it. Which it sounds like it was. But thinking you just "saved" $4,750 doing it yourself isn't the right way to look at it.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#66

Post by dheera » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:19 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #31

Gustomaximus wrote: post #23

What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. Massey, Fendt or similar could really differentiate themself and take market share on the back of this I suspect. Especially w…

> What I don't understand is why a couple of the higher quality tractor companies have not started pushing hard to brand "we support repair" and having available online manuals and software to support this. This seems a perfect marketing/product platform for an underdog that also believes this. My understanding is basically all high-capital machinery makes a _lot_ of money from support contracts and repairs. I think…

> feels like something that needs to happen out of the goodness of your heart because you _are_ just leaving money on the table.

Which means you need to get it off the ground without the help of the stock market or investors, all of which are greedy for that money on the table.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#67

Post by Double_a_92 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:35 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #20

voakbasda wrote: post #10

I suspect that John Deere and friends will find a way to challenge this in court and -- if they eventually lose -- find a way to maliciously comply with the law. Their behavior has been actively hostile to their customers for years, and they have zero incentive to change. Like Apple's repair kits mentioned in another comment, I suspect their strategy will involve providing tools that cost nearly as much to rent as it…

Apple's repair kits are a weird comparison here. The rental is $49, and that's probably at cost or close to it given the shipping costs both ways for a 79-pound box. There's nothing malicious compliance about it... it's just a pain in the ass to repair modern ultra-light and ultra-efficient phones the "right" way.

To be fair that kit doesn't need to be that heavy... It's basically just a heating element with nice frames to hold the phone.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#68

Post by zamnos » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:35 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #62

jezovuk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit/VC? Or you start a co-op dairy / farm / repair shop and work for centuries towards arriving at where JD is today (by which time big corps would have moved a few centuries ahead).

Credit is probably the only way. But I don’t see regular banks jumping at the chance to invest in worker co-ops. Maybe a credit union? VC doesn’t work. Investors want equity for their money.

VC works plenty well. It's a business deal. 100% of a $0 business is $0, so in exchange for enough money to jump start the business that you don't have the funding for, you give up some equity so that in the eventuality that you're successful supplanting John Deere, your investors get paid out. That's how the system works.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#69

Post by zamnos » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:39 AM UTC

conradev wrote: post #28

voakbasda wrote: post #10

I suspect that John Deere and friends will find a way to challenge this in court and -- if they eventually lose -- find a way to maliciously comply with the law. Their behavior has been actively hostile to their customers for years, and they have zero incentive to change. Like Apple's repair kits mentioned in another comment, I suspect their strategy will involve providing tools that cost nearly as much to rent as it…

John Deere signed a memorandum of understanding in January: https://www.fb.org/news-release/afbf-signs-right-to-repair-m...

> In January—the beginning of the legislative season—Deere and the American Farm Bureau Federation signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), promising to give farmers access to some previously restricted repair materials. And on the very day of a critical hearing, Case IH and New Holland signed their own memorandum of understanding at the last minute, a desperate attempt to smother the bill. However, legislators determined that both MOUs were vague, incomplete, and unenforceable. Suspiciously, they also required that members of the American Farm Bureau Federation cease advocating for Right to Repair laws.

Re: Colorado passes agricultural Right to Repair

#70

Post by Double_a_92 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:43 AM UTC

freejazz wrote: post #48

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #7

But will John Deere do what Apple did? Here’s one example: “Apple shipped me a 79-pound iPhone repair kit to fix a 1.1-ounce battery” https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi... “I’m starting to think Apple doesn’t want us to repair them”

I don't get this article - he wants to replace the battery... to do that he has to replace the screen. he then complains that he has to use this big device to suck the screen off?? he wanted to do the repairs... these are the tools to do the repairs. he'd be writing the same exact article if they sent him crappy versions of the tools to do the repairs...

I'm pretty sure you don't need those exact bulky tools to do the job. The main issue is that repairers can't get original parts. What apple now does is borderline maliciously compliant, by sending you the parts but also forcing you to pay 50$ for tool rentals.