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My U.S. Border Nightmare

zakhomuth.com

271–280 of 284 posts

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#271
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone growing up at a border (1 mile from the Austrian / Swiss border) - I have to say that this is a whole different thing in Europe (between Switzerland / Austria / Germany for sure). Well you get checked for the stuff and if you are over the allowed quantities for the stuff you have with you - and you may have to show your ID but that's it. If you didn't do any wrong you have no problems. For me (and many fam…

Reminder: Switzerland is not part of the EU (european union) That's true, but Switzerland is certainly part of the Schengen treaty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement ), which regulates border crossing throughout the participating countries (there is no formal border control, between those countries). Leaving from Zurich to most European destinations by plane I usually don't even need an id.

The UK and Ireland are both outside the Schengen treaty.

When you take the ferry from Britain to Ireland, if I remember rightly, the customs ask you if you are British or Irish. British / Irish citizens don't have to show a passport, but everyone else does. The beautiful thing is that you are just relied upon to tell the truth.

In fact, I have never been asked anyway, they just wave everyone through.

I was really impressed by this story. I never wanted to go the U.S.A. anyway, but my decision is even more strongly reinforced now, I certainly will never go with my children. (Mostly I didn't want to be finger-printed like a common criminal.)

Travelling between the Schengen countries, in my experience, the worst country is Germany, the second worst is Switzerland. Travelling between Spain, France, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Portugal and Austria I don't remember being ever asked even to produce a passport. (In Germany you are though - although Germany is supposed to be a Schengen country, unfortunately the police are still bastards. They make a big rude show of themselves, and like to feel important. We decided after that never to travel through Germany again if possible.)

Also, Australian customs - really friendly. Japanese customs, also nice.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#272

Author seems a bit naive about international sovereignty, though I suppose one can't exactly blame him for it. I grew up in Vancouver, a stone's throw from the border, so I suppose I take it for granted that we all learn very early on that CBP is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and everyone knows someone who was chewed out, berated, and generally treated like a criminal by them. Seeing as how I work in the US n…

> You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen,

As an European, I'll be forgiven if I start to forget this. After all plenty of our traffic posts, some older then US, have been turned into cafes.

We should watch this as hackers - and as hackers, this looks a lot like a process that's failing at its job. The point is not to make crossing the border an unpleasant experience (unless it is, and then it's doing a great job) but to do whatever it has to do as transparently as possibly. And regardless of other constraints, it can _at least_ do it politely.

No matter how you look at it, somebody isn't doing his job here.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely true - there was a lot of scaremongering in the UK when Eastern European countries (like Poland) joined the EU because of fears about an influx of immigrants working for cheap wages.

I am British and live in the UK, I remember this happening, and I had it in mind when I wrote the comment above. If you take Europe as a whole, it's not scared of immigration between member countries. The UK is simply more racist and narcissistic than the rest of Europe.

I'm British, and I've lived between Holland, Italy and France for a few years. I don't think it's really true that the British are more racist or narcissistic. I think they are more fake, and more arrogant. I think the racism is really a reflection of the British newspapers than the people.

A thing that British people forget is that our country is the only in Europe where there are no ID cards (yet). In Italy, Holland and France people think it's strange when I tell them that it's not only that you don't have to carry an ID with you in Britain, but that it's not even compulsory to own an ID (passports, driving licenses, etc. are all optional). Furthermore, you are not required to register your address in Britain, like you are in, for example, Austria, Italy, and Holland. In Britain, the state doesn't know for sure how many people there are, and where they all live because there is no national database. They have the voting register, NHS database, DVLA database, whatever the Inland Revenue has, and the census, but it's a mess and they don't really care.

In comparison, when I moved from Holland to France recently, we had to de-register (in Holland), and we took great care to say that we were travelling (not true) and we gave no address. We didn't even give the country. But they found out anyway, because they sent us letters and stuff, even though we didn't have to register in France. The Dutch state is extremely efficient, data is shared widely and easily between state organizations. It's vaguely fascist. The British system, in comparison, is chaotic.

In my opinion, the British don't appreciate how liberal their state is.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely true - there was a lot of scaremongering in the UK when Eastern European countries (like Poland) joined the EU because of fears about an influx of immigrants working for cheap wages.

I am British and live in the UK, I remember this happening, and I had it in mind when I wrote the comment above. If you take Europe as a whole, it's not scared of immigration between member countries. The UK is simply more racist and narcissistic than the rest of Europe.

A lot of the other EU countries delayed letting the newer nations have full working rights. I think Germany only fully allowed Poles last year.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#275
post #6

I couldn't get through that wall of incoherent text. But from what I read, he's 100% wrong...maybe the story gets really weird though...however.. Traveling to a country which you are not a citizen of is not a right, it's a privilege. There are places where you need to apply weeks (or months) in advanced just to visit. Every country has different types of visas, and each visa has restrictions on what sort of activity…

> Traveling to a country which you are not a citizen of is not a right, it's a privilege.

Sort of. But we are all citizens of the world. States are just arbitrary things made by ... historical reasons, I dunno why. This reason is the same reason the customs guards use to excuse their crappy behaviour to other people. No-one deserves to be treated like that.

Does President Obama get that sort of treatment when he goes through the U.S. / Canadian border?

> Don't like the system? Don't like how a particular country enforces its laws or what the punishment can be?

>Don't travel.

I would have said, "Complain." Because the more people in a position of power act like that, and people don't complain, the more it gets accepted as normal.

I find that often you get pestered by people in museums, saying, "Don't point!" and whatnot. The last time we went, my daughter got told off for touching the plastic sign next to a painting. It didn't used to be like that, the museums have got more ... well, fascist. Some of them now have airport-like security with X-ray machines (e.g. Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam).But people put up with that crap, and they've got used to it. 50 years ago, people would have thought, "What the fuck?!"

In the 70s (I think) Jean Tinguely made machine-like sculptures that people were allowed to touch and use. Now those sculptures are worth millions, so they don't even turn them on. But even new works by unknown artists nowadays, they would never let you touch the art works.

It's interesting to compare it to a restaurant. Because in a restaurant you pay afterwards. So if the waiter starts being dickish, and you complain, and ... he carries on, nothing changes, well you can just stand up and go! And not pay! But the fact is that the restaurant wants their money first. So usually they are much nicer than customs guards or museum attendants.

(I live in Europe, but) why don't you U.S. / Canadian people do the following:

Give a tip to the guard when you next pass through customs, but only if they are reasonable, do their job properly, and they aren't rude. You like tipping anyway! Make it a new American institution, get all your friends to do it.

Eventually, the customs guards will learn to expect their tip, and will be nice to you.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#276
Once I was invited to a conference at the MIT in Boston. My travel agency got me a room in the nearby Marriott in Cambridge and told me I just had to get a subway to the square nearby to the hotel.

That was not enough information for the border guard at the airport in Boston. He just wouldn't let me go through. I was arguing 15 minutes until someone offered me his mobile to call the Hotel to ask for the address and street number.

Not again. Never.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#277
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's absolutely no question that it involves working in America, and would require a business visa. I'm not sure how one could a) be smart enough to get into YC, and b) not realize that coming to SF for 3 months to work presumably as a C-level director for an American business requires a work visa. EDIT: And neither B1 nor B2 is the right visa, so CBP was right to send him home. The OP needed a working visa.

I didn't mean to imply it wouldn't require a business visa (or employment visa and/or status, per patio11). When I said calling it "business training" was technically accurate, I meant just that. YC technically helps train you to create and run a business, but it's only part of the equation. I certainly agree that he should have known better. How can you honestly say (or think) "I'm going to the states for a couple m…

>How can you honestly say (or think)

The author noted why - he said as he wasn't financially benefiting [or acting as an agent to procure direct financial benefit presumably] he assumed it didn't count as business. TBH that's the measure most people use for "is this a business thing".

It could get quite tricky. For example part of what I do for money involves working with ceramics. I get inspiration in all sorts of places. If on a holiday to USA I happen to see a nice piece of ceramic art that inspires me then suddenly I've learnt something that benefits my business and one could argue it is in part a trip "for business". Perhaps that's too weak, but where's the cross-over ... if I go to visit a pottery? If I attend a seminar? If I go to a workshop [an event where one learns new techniques]? If I actively participate in a workshop?

Is the problem that USA don't want to let people learn things in the USA and leave the country with that knowledge just in case they give away some commercial advantage?

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#278
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone growing up at a border (1 mile from the Austrian / Swiss border) - I have to say that this is a whole different thing in Europe (between Switzerland / Austria / Germany for sure). Well you get checked for the stuff and if you are over the allowed quantities for the stuff you have with you - and you may have to show your ID but that's it. If you didn't do any wrong you have no problems. For me (and many fam…

Reminder: Switzerland is not part of the EU (european union) That's true, but Switzerland is certainly part of the Schengen treaty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement ), which regulates border crossing throughout the participating countries (there is no formal border control, between those countries). Leaving from Zurich to most European destinations by plane I usually don't even need an id.

"Leaving from Zurich to most European destinations by plane I usually don't even need an id."

Not true. Having an ID on you is needed while travelling Schengen, and you can get a fine if you don't have one.

One chick from our bus even managed to get one when we were stopped by Polizei for a random check a few km inside Germany.

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#279
post #138
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always worried in these situations that not using the word "sir" would impact on my experience and their reaction. It seems to be a common thing to say in the US, but I can't remember ever using it outside of a joke in my life.

OTOH, I find the habit that Americans have of calling everyone "guys", particularly from waiters, janitors, etc, annoying and vulgar, but apparently that's the habit on the other side of the pond (or am I that old?). How would you call a person you don't know? Particularly someone with authority, like a cop, border guard, etc? Just curious; so far I still consider "mister", "man", "ol'guy" and "chap" to be deliberate…

"Hi guys" to a group of mixed gender is just considered friendly but casual in Australia. The cleaners of my office stop to chat or generally work around us if we're working late. They can call me anything friendly, to be honest. "Mate" is obviously common amongst some sets.

I wouldn't call a cop anything. Would just say "hi".

Re: My U.S. Border Nightmare

#280
post #189
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mean "calling everyone guys"? e.g. "Hey, guy! Don't step on the wet floor"? I don't think, generally speaking, that honorifics are required, even with individuals working in an official capacity (I would never say "sir" to a cop or a ICE agent, for example). That might just be a west coast habit, though. Back east, things might be different.

You know, something like "Hey guys, what would you like?" and "Hi guys, How're ya doin'?". When I enter a restaurant, I'm not looking forward creating bonds with waiters. It always feel quite awkward to me. But hey, I was taught "English" not "American English", and corn isn't maize, you may colour the centre, and so on :) BTW how would you talk to the said cop? Officer?

(I should stress that this might be different for other Americans -- it's a big place with lots of regions)

When interacting with authority figures I am generally polite without deference.

I find that people generally use honorifics when they're being quite rude and would like to soften the impact (e.g. the perennial "Good day, sir"), or while insipidly attempting to endear oneself to another (e.g. perceiving someone as wealthy or powerful). I don't know if it's my own egalitarian nature, or cultural, but I find both more rude than the omission of "sir" or "madam".

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