Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#211

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 1:44 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #202

jszymborski wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you facetiously equate my comment with the harm perpetuated by someone actively racially discriminating against someone, do you expect me to take your argument in good faith? I'm not going to argue you with you.

How can you judge what is harmful to me? You personally are no general metric to all mankind. In fact, what you just wrote made me suicidal now since your words hurt me very badly and triggered massive childhood trauma which I barely survived but haven't told about to anybody due to shame. Your words hurt me that much. You can't question it, since you have no idea what is happening on my side. If you try to diminish…

Of course, none of that is actually going to happen, there is no general legal basis for "Someone owes me money because they said a thing that made me sad online in a debate website I voluntarily visit in my leisure time for (one assumes) entertainment or educational value," and your explanation of why it would happen indicates massive ignorance of the legal framework relevant to this thread topic.

I always find it interesting when people who are willing to accept the arbitrariness of the LISP interpreter or JavaScript's market dominance or the C++ curiously recurring template pattern get shocked or surprised that the United States' framework of law and legal precedent is arbitrary and path-dependent and does not conform to their (also arbitrary and path-dependent) sense of fairness.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#212

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 1:47 PM UTC

misslibby wrote: post #208

bigbillheck wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk claims lots of things on Twitter that aren't true.

Such as?

I recommend doing one's own research on this topic; the well is quite deep. Musk's greatest talent is salesmanship; that sometimes divorces from the truth.

This can get you started: https://news.sky.com/story/elon-musks-lies-about-tesla-on-tw...

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#213

Post by misslibby » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 1:50 PM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #192

misslibby wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is a law, doesn't imply it is good or justified.

Perhaps you can explain the relevancy of your comment? Your comment suggests you think financial payment to an HN user with hurt feelings due to another user "not thinking much of his comment" is either good or justified. I find that hard to believe. On the other hand, decades ago the US decided that it's neither good nor justified to have a hostile work environment - something I agree with - and put laws and systems…

Your argument was that "so and so did break the law". I answered that just because something is a law, it isn't good or correct. If you don't see the relevancy, I don't know what else to tell you.

I don't think people should pay other users because of their comments. On the contrary, my argument was that they shouldn't have to pay.

As for hostile work environments, my opinion is that people should simply quit their jobs if they are unhappy with their work environment. I don't think governments should interfere with how companies conduct their business.

I even think racism should be legal. Don't get me wrong - I don't like racism. But the government shouldn't be allowed to tell people who they have to like or dislike. If somebody doesn't want to work with somebody else because they don't like their nose or whatever, it should be in their rights to refuse to work with them. In general, people should be allowed to do with their money as they please, so also to pay for work who they want.

One thing I heard is that the guy in question here even tried to get a relative a position at Tesla, which seems odd if he thought the work environment was so bad. Not sure if that is true, though.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#214

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 1:52 PM UTC

misslibby wrote: post #209

eesmith wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What lousy lawyers Tesla must have. There were TWO jury trials, and the plaintiff was successful in BOTH of them. There are also many companies with illegally discriminatory workplace environments in existence. Just because "pedo guy" Musk claims something doesn't mean it's beyond criticism. There's always more than what's reported in the news. It's not like we're going to read the court transcripts. Please be specif…

Maybe his colleagues didn't like Diaz much. I don't approve of such slurs, on the other hand, I am in favor of free speech and people being in charge of their own companies. Lousy lawyers - ianal, Musk said they were not allowed to present new evidence. No idea what was going on. Certainly there are judgements in the US legal system that seem wrong. It is not a perfect system.

> I am in favor of free speech and people being in charge of their own companies.

About half a century ago, after some difficult (and in some cases bloody) fights, the United States passed several laws curtailing some liberties a company owner may take with how they run their affairs with the aim of a net societal good. They are pretty well-constrained, place little burden on companies overall, and have the net effect of allowing a double-digit-percentage of working Americans of having a fair shot at doing the work they must do every day to make wage free of a kind of psychological torment that their peers are never at risk of experiencing daily.

It was certainly a curtailment of freedom of speech and expression. It was a curtailment of such with significant positive outcomes and made the country a better place.

Nothing I've seen about the way we are today suggests to me that rolling back the clock on those laws would be a net good.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#215

Post by misslibby » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #214

misslibby wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe his colleagues didn't like Diaz much. I don't approve of such slurs, on the other hand, I am in favor of free speech and people being in charge of their own companies. Lousy lawyers - ianal, Musk said they were not allowed to present new evidence. No idea what was going on. Certainly there are judgements in the US legal system that seem wrong. It is not a perfect system.

> I am in favor of free speech and people being in charge of their own companies. About half a century ago, after some difficult (and in some cases bloody) fights, the United States passed several laws curtailing some liberties a company owner may take with how they run their affairs with the aim of a net societal good. They are pretty well-constrained, place little burden on companies overall, and have the net effec…

That's your opinion as a probably left leaning person. Other people may think differently. That such laws were passed 50 years ago does not prove that they were a net positive.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#216

Post by kevviiinn » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #201

kevviiinn wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could explain why you think the outcome is bad, just saying it was bad is rather unconvincing

Okay: the actual proximate cause of the burn was the heat of the liquid. As far as I know, they were not required to, nor did they, reduce the temperature. Nor should they have; to reduce the temperature of the coffee to a level low enough where she would not have received third-degree burns would require brewing and/or holding at a temperature low enough to negatively impact the quality. That case is a study in how…

As I mentioned in another comment, keeping coffee at a high temperature actually reduces the quality by speeding up chemical reactions that make it more bitter. Keeping it at a low temperature (around 50C) prevents this so your interpretation of how the temperature relates to quality is entirely backwards

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#217

Post by throw0101a » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

onethought wrote: post #177

throw0101c wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Liebeck acknowledged that the spill was her fault. What she took issue with was that the coffee was so ridiculously hot — at up to 190 degrees Fahrenheit [88C], near boiling point — that it caused third-degree burns on her legs and genitals, nearly killing her and requiring extensive surgery to treat. > McDonald’s apparently knew that this was unsafe. In the decade before Liebeck’s spill, McDonald’s had received 70…

88 degrees makes sense… you boil water to make coffee… Also you can feel via the cup how hot.

> According to Dr. Fredericka Brown and Dr. Kenneth Diller, mechanical engineering professors at The University of Texas at Tyler, the optimal temperature range for serving hot beverages is between 125°F and 136°F. Their research shows that although there are varying preferences regarding the optimal temperature for beverage consumption, drinking a hot beverage outside of this range can negatively impact taste and cause physical discomfort. In some cases, drinking beverages that are above this temperature range can lead to serious burns to the mouth, tongue, and esophagus.

* https://blog.nycm.com/2020/01/protecting-your-palate-what-is...

> Hot beverages such as tea, hot chocolate, and coffee are frequently served at temperatures between 160 degrees F (71.1 degrees C) and 185 degrees F (85 degrees C). Brief exposures to liquids in this temperature range can cause significant scald burns. However, hot beverages must be served at a temperature that is high enough to provide a satisfactory sensation to the consumer. This paper presents an analysis to quantify hot beverage temperatures that balance limiting the potential scald burn hazard and maintaining an acceptable perception of adequate product warmth.

* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18226454/

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#218

Post by zug_zug » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

maximus-decimus wrote: post #145

Teever wrote: post #45

[flagged]

People love to hate on Musk. What I find bizzare is that 15 years ago it was NickelBack and Justin Beiber. Nowaday it's Bezos/Musk. Not sure if I just don't live in the same circle since I'm twice as old or Tech Bros are the new pop stars.

I'm not really sure how you can compare those two. Mocking nickleback was a pseudo-joke like hating pineapple pizza, used for social comfort.

Bezos is not that. It's maybe a bit exaggerated where it might seem like people think he's the worst person, but in reality he's just a name that everybody knows who most people think is a bad person on multiple levels - but the approach to management of quantifying everyone and treating them like machines so that they have wild turnover is something that a lot of people all agree is awful and repugnant.

I'm sure if you want to understand why Musk is hated you can google it, but he clearly courts controversy and tries to get attention by saying outlandish things and it usually backfires. His handling of twitter seems toxic to a lot of people (Just work crazy hard and sleep in the office or you suck!). Then there was the sexual harrassment too right? He never apologizes for any of it that I've seen. Also there are accusations he's manipulated stock prices for a meme. And at this point I think a lot of people think he's too chaotic/random to believe what he says afterall, even if he gave an apology.

Gates is a good counterexample. Either of these people could act like Gates and be less hated.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#219

Post by Overtonwindow » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

kjksf wrote: post #39

devrand wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they did reject a $15m payout after they won the first trial.

Yes, because they wanted $160 million which is what their lawyers wanted in the second trail. In the first suit jury awarded $137 million, judge lowered that to $15 and they had an option to get that or have a new trial. They went with a new trial. So yeah, it was all about the money.

What's worse, is that with the media coverage about this, a company is going to think twice about hiring that employee. I think lawsuits do more harm for the employee than good. Unless they just win an obscene amount of money to set themselves up for life, otherwise they have a scarlet letter.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#220

Post by misslibby » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #212

misslibby wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such as?

I recommend doing one's own research on this topic; the well is quite deep. Musk's greatest talent is salesmanship; that sometimes divorces from the truth. This can get you started: https://news.sky.com/story/elon-musks-lies-about-tesla-on-tw...

Doesn't sound like such a clear cut case. Has the court decided yet?