Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 290 posts

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#171

Post by hermannj314 »

Since 2021, the damages have been calculated by the brilliant minds of our legal system as $137 million, $15 million, and now $3 million. But don't you dare question the outcome in the comments here, this is serious lawyer stuff.

Hell of a hustle the lawyers have built. They manage a cartel that is slow, labor inefficient and has horrendous quality control.

(I almost forgot, the cartel requires I tell you I am not a member of their cartel and this is not cartel advice. If I don't tell you this, they will send someone to hurt me financially)

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#173

Post by robertlagrant »

zozbot234 wrote: post #167
Animats wrote: post #68

It's amazing how big the settlements are for discrimination lawsuits vs. other labor law violations. Wage and hour violations get a slap on the wrist. Safety violations seldom cost a company more than a few thousand dollars unless someone is killed, and even then payments rarely exceed 5 figures.

Except that if I was a racialized person and saw scrawled swastikas in my place of employment, I might very reasonably start to be concerned about my actual safety. The law clearly says that the employer is liable for a hostile work environment. So a damage award in that range really doesn't seem that excessive.

I don't know any of the detail, but I don't see how this symbol interpreted as a threat of violence should receive a larger award than an actual death, which is what the person you're replying to was saying. Have I misunderstood?

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#174

Post by Veen »

jeffparsons wrote: post #125
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discrimination lawsuits in the US are supposed to be torts I believe, which is what allows you to have these big settlements (think McDonalds coffee too hot, that was a tort) I would think that Safety violations may also be torts - but probably not all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort

The McDonald's coffee incident is often cited as an example of litigation and punitive damages gone mad. Some woman got scalded by her coffee? And she was awarded how much? It's less often noted just how badly the woman was injured (third degree burns, significant amounts of skin seared off, etc.) and the details of why McDonald's was held liable (dangerous policy, not an isolated mistake). The details are worth a re…

I've never understood this. She bought hot coffee, put it between her legs, and spilled it. If I'd done that, I would feel foolish and blame no one but myself. What reasonable person is surprised that coffee is served hot enough to scald you?

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#175

Post by throw0101c »

Veen wrote: post #174
jeffparsons wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The McDonald's coffee incident is often cited as an example of litigation and punitive damages gone mad. Some woman got scalded by her coffee? And she was awarded how much? It's less often noted just how badly the woman was injured (third degree burns, significant amounts of skin seared off, etc.) and the details of why McDonald's was held liable (dangerous policy, not an isolated mistake). The details are worth a re…

I've never understood this. She bought hot coffee, put it between her legs, and spilled it. If I'd done that, I would feel foolish and blame no one but myself. What reasonable person is surprised that coffee is served hot enough to scald you?

> Liebeck acknowledged that the spill was her fault. What she took issue with was that the coffee was so ridiculously hot — at up to 190 degrees Fahrenheit [88C], near boiling point — that it caused third-degree burns on her legs and genitals, nearly killing her and requiring extensive surgery to treat.

> McDonald’s apparently knew that this was unsafe. In the decade before Liebeck’s spill, McDonald’s had received 700 reports of people burning themselves. McDonald’s admitted that its coffee was a hazard at such high temperatures. But it continued the practice, enforced by official McDonald’s policy, of heating up its coffee to near-boiling point. (McDonald’s claimed customers wanted the coffee this hot.)

> Liebeck didn’t want to go to court. She just wanted McDonald’s to pay her medical expenses, estimated at $20,000. McDonald’s only offered $800, leading her to file a lawsuit in 1994.

> After hearing the evidence, the jury concluded that McDonald’s handling of its coffee was so irresponsible that Liebeck should get much more than $20,000, suggesting she get nearly $2.9 million to send the company a message. Liebeck settled for less than $600,000. And McDonald’s began changing how it heats up its coffee.

* https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13971482/...

There's hot and then there's hot.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#176

Post by mschuster91 »

notch898a wrote: post #113
nine_k wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism created so many problems in the US, including a devastating civil war with 2M casualties, that what seems like an over-reaction is understandable. It's the "nuke it from the orbit" option. Yes, nuking things from the orbit does have downsides, if you ask me. But if this imperfect tool is something that reliably prevents a new crop of Jim Crow laws, I can tolerate some fallout. (If you think that people are now…

[flagged]

> Nonetheless, even on HN you may find segregation is still popular if people think it enforces the right cause.

Restrictions against foreigners buying real estate are pretty much accepted in wide parts of the world, with Canada being the most recent adopter to fend off wealthy Chinese people trying to safeguard their wealth against the CCP.

The issue with Hawaii is that it is (unlike, say, Puerto Rico) an official US State, which means that US citizens should have the right to live and buy/rent/lease real estate there - but at the same time, it does make sense to protect the Native population still existing, similarly to Native American reservations.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_home_land

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#177

Post by onethought »

throw0101c wrote: post #175
Veen wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood this. She bought hot coffee, put it between her legs, and spilled it. If I'd done that, I would feel foolish and blame no one but myself. What reasonable person is surprised that coffee is served hot enough to scald you?

> Liebeck acknowledged that the spill was her fault. What she took issue with was that the coffee was so ridiculously hot — at up to 190 degrees Fahrenheit [88C], near boiling point — that it caused third-degree burns on her legs and genitals, nearly killing her and requiring extensive surgery to treat. > McDonald’s apparently knew that this was unsafe. In the decade before Liebeck’s spill, McDonald’s had received 70…

88 degrees makes sense… you boil water to make coffee… Also you can feel via the cup how hot.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#178

Post by georgyo »

Veen wrote: post #174
jeffparsons wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The McDonald's coffee incident is often cited as an example of litigation and punitive damages gone mad. Some woman got scalded by her coffee? And she was awarded how much? It's less often noted just how badly the woman was injured (third degree burns, significant amounts of skin seared off, etc.) and the details of why McDonald's was held liable (dangerous policy, not an isolated mistake). The details are worth a re…

I've never understood this. She bought hot coffee, put it between her legs, and spilled it. If I'd done that, I would feel foolish and blame no one but myself. What reasonable person is surprised that coffee is served hot enough to scald you?

There are three things at play.

1. Styrofoam cups are good heat insulators, so touching the cup does not communicate how hot the contents are.

2. Management intentionally made the coffee too hot. Making the coffee too hot to drink meant people would not get refills because they would drink it more slowly. This is the company knowingly do something unsafe for profit.

3. The award was the amount of money McDonald's makes on coffee in a single day. It seems like a lot of money, but a very small amount for the giant.

The real nail here is that mgmt sent emails explicitly about number 2.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#179

Post by misslibby »

eesmith wrote: post #144
misslibby wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been awarded any money because somebody said something to me I didn't like. Yes words can have consequences. Let's take politics, some parties get elected based on their words, and then implement policies that are harmful to me. I still never got any kind of compensation for that kind of thing. How much money should ehticalsmacker be awarded from you, because you not thinking much of his comment hurt his f…

That's irrelevant. The HN comment forum is not government by equal opportunity employment law. The definition of a hostile work environment is not "said something to me I didn't like". Quoting the EEOC at https://www.archives.gov/files/eeo/policy/facts-about-workpl... : "... the anti-discrimination statutes are not a general civility code, Federal law does not prohibit simple teasing, off-hand comments, or isolated i…

Musk has claimed on Twitter that Tesla wasn't allowed to present new evidence, and that the fine would have been 0 with the new evidence. But he says the jury did the best with the given evidence and he respects their decision.

I think there is more to the story than CNN reports, also, just because something has been made into a law, it isn't beyond discussion or criticism. There are many bad laws in existence.

Re: Tesla ordered to pay more than $3M to former worker in racism suit

#180

Post by misslibby »

eesmith wrote: post #146
ngruhn wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not ”equate“. Let’s say it’s 10.000 times less harmful. 3M/10k = 300. You owe that man 300 bucks.

Your math doesn't work because the situations are incomparable. jszymborski comments did not break the law. Tesla violations of employment laws regarding a hostile work environment did break the law. Two different juries decided that Tesla broke the law, and that punitive damages were needed to deter that behavior in the future. What law is jszymborski breaking? What court is applicable? None.

Just because something is a law, doesn't imply it is good or justified.
Post reply on HN