Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters • Hacker News Board

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#471

Post by petre » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

xpl wrote: post #406

petre wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that their weight and speed and where one can park them needs to be regulated. Hungary has at least done the last bit in Budapest with rectangles marked in green on the sidewalk. City councils can also rent out this space, preventing scooter chaos. They're also overbuilt for anti vandalism, weighting over 20 kilos. If one hits a pedestrian with a rental scooter, it can cause bad injuries. High speed also puts…

> Since it's a rental, nobody wears a helmet and almost everybody drives them irresponsibly In Tel Aviv, all rental scooters come with helmets, and wearing a helmet is actually enforced by the police. Also they are banned from riding on sidewalks. So it seems to be just a regulation/enforcement problem, not intrinsical to scooters themselves or being rental or private.

Sharing a helmet comes with its own set of hygene issues. I believe most of the EU cycling helmet laws are okay because they make it optional and the rider decides to wear one or not. If we'd adopt similar rules for e-scooters, limiting their speed to 25 km/h (like e-bikes) and their weight to 20 kg or so, it would be possible to ride them on bike lanes. That and designated parking spots for rental, just as the Budapest city council did. Rental e-scooters that are not parked in those spots are picked up and treated like lost objects. I'm quite sure that the rental companies have to pay a fine to recover them or have their license suspended otherwise (= banned from operating the service).

Also, e-scooters are banned from riding on sidewalks just about everywhere. That doesn't necessarily mean the rule is enforced or that collisions with pedestrians don't happen. I've almost been hit while riding a bike by an e-scooter operated by an underage child (in violation of the terms of service) that darted from an alley without right of way.

But I generally agree that it's a regulation issue and outright banning rental scooters is rather extreme. Paris did it with public consultation, so the city coulcil has their backs covered.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#472

Post by concordDance » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #468

concordDance wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those 12 year who suddenly got mobility and then suddenly lost it had no say. These paws are voted on exclusively by the elderly for complex reasons.

So those 12 years old are "entitled" to mobility how, and why would they be entitled to driving such a vehicle from a private company, for which you need to understand the concept of insurance and personal damage responsibility, at an age that wouldn't allow them to drive basically anything else than their personal bike?

Why do they not also need those concepts when driving a personal bike?

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#473

Post by theonlybutlet » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #157

theonlybutlet wrote: post #120

I think with perhaps less scooters and a more formal parking system akin to bike rental lockstands, the escooters could've continued to work in Paris. Problem was the place was littered with them, often piled up like fallen dominos on pavements blocking the walking path. They were really navigating a city that size.

It was actually already like this. Unlike Berlin, in Paris you could only park the kickscooters in designated areas.

Yeah but often those designated areas are very large, allowing people to block the walkways and them all piled up, when they fall over isn't visually appealing. (Yes, people get upset over silly things). Like actual bike stands, something to keep them upright and away from the walking paths would've been helpful.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#474

Post by edanm » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

hoseja wrote: post #210

aflag wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public transport is operated by the government. They consider no one should work on Saturdays so they don't run their services then. I think if using your private car was forbidden it would've been even crazier.

Well, it IS forbidden, no? Just not banned by the government.

I'm not sure what you mean by "forbidden". It's not illegal. Is it forbidden by Jewish law? Yes. But this only applies to whoever decides to keep it. Most of the Israeli population doesn't keep Shabbat, so they have no problem driving their car around.

(Similarly Jews and Muslims may decide to keep Kosher while living in the States, that's a personal choice.)

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#475

Post by edanm » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 1:38 PM UTC

WJW wrote: post #355

pharmakom wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so on weekends you can drive a car around but you cannot get the bus or a train? if so that's crazy.

Well. You are legally allowed to drive a car around, but will still get stones thrown at your car if you do so in an ultra-orthodox neighborhood.

I just want to make it clear that you're talking about a very very specific thing, which has nothing to do with the daily existence of most non-Jewish-religious Israelis. I mention this cause you make it sound like this is something more than it is.

The vast majority of the Israeli population drives their car on Saturday.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#476

Post by bombcar » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 2:01 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #364

Fradow wrote: post #272

Parisian here, for context I've been cycling to work for about 10 years now (before Paris transformed into a cycle-friendly city). There are a lot of speculations and hypothesis from people who don't live in Paris and try to apply their experience in a different city to Paris, so allow me to offer the experience (obviously I'm biased) of someone living there. The first big misconception is that this ban is only due t…

> Now a last misconception is that this ban is bad because people will revert to cars. No they won't. In the first place, people riding rental e-scooters do not replace a car trip by a rental e-scooter trip This is a hard one to qualify completely. There is a lot of statistical evidence that infers that greater usage of e-Scooters and e-Bikes decreases car traffic. That may not be the case in Paris (and I can definit…

> There are other points though, "last mile" is a difficult problem

"Last mile" is literally solved with two legs and some shoes. A mile is walked in 15-30 minutes, and if you can scooter you can walk. The actually mobility-challenged can be provided vehicles if necessary.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#477

Post by otabdeveloper4 » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 2:04 PM UTC

elric wrote: post #287

I wonder if there have been any social studies done regarding the apparent sense of entitlement that comes with operating any kind of vehicle. E-scooters are an absolute menace nearly everywhere I've seen them being used, with their operators weaving between pedestrians and cars alike, and littering the kerb when unused. But the same is often true for bicycles, especially the fast electric kind, and it's certainly tr…

> For some reason, we've come to accept the dominant position of cars and the absolute entitlement (and douchebaggery!) that comes with it. But we seem to be unwilling to accept the same from bikes or scooters.

Who's "we"? I'm pretty sure this isn't universal.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#478

Post by Fradow » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

apichat wrote: post #459

Fradow wrote: post #272

Parisian here, for context I've been cycling to work for about 10 years now (before Paris transformed into a cycle-friendly city). There are a lot of speculations and hypothesis from people who don't live in Paris and try to apply their experience in a different city to Paris, so allow me to offer the experience (obviously I'm biased) of someone living there. The first big misconception is that this ban is only due t…

> The real reason is that anytime you see someone egregiously disregarding rules in a way that endanger others, it's more often than not a rental e-scooter, with rental e-bikes coming behind. They are perceived as dangerous, plain and simple. And it's not a lack of cycling infrastructure. While it's not up to Netherlands-level of bike-friendliness yet, it's quite good lately overall. Parisian too, but with reality in…

> Parisian too, but with reality in mind. We should first reduced by 95% the amount of cars and ban taxis

Oh I agree with that, but we can do both!

First link => that's an ongoing project with Crit'air restrictions. Link is 2 years old, Crit'Air 4 have been banned since then (though enforcement is low). And newer cars emit a lot less of pollution.

Second link => that's Ile-de-France and not Paris. That's why I was careful to specify Paris. Ile-de-France as whole is a lot more sprawling, so there is less alternatives to cars. Skimming it, it seems to support your argument even for Paris though, but I have a hard time to find the exact percentage. I'd be curious what's the actual number for Paris only nowadays.

Third link => that's for France as a whole. I did not skim it.

Fourth link => that's from 2016. I'm pretty sure it has evolved a bit since then. Numerous cycle lanes have been created since then, and parking/car lanes removed. Though that's still an ongoing project. I'd be really curious about updated numbers.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#479

Post by alistairSH » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

ouid wrote: post #114

rhaway84773 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem with scooters is cuties unwilling to provide them with proper infrastructure. Bike lanes in most cities (out of the better European cycling cities), tend to be narrow and about 1/4 - 1/3 the size of a car lane. If a city were to dedicate a single car lane sized lane for “micromobility” and responded quickly to damage to this lane (which wouldn’t be as frequent for the obvious reason that damage is pr…

You can't add a lane for every "new" mode of transportation...

Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort.

In a given area (say a full city block, including all roads and alleys within and bordering that block), you might want...

- Pedestrian lane

- Bike+scooter lane (any transport that's ~20mph and - Auto lane

- parking lane (could be a mix of bike/car parking)

- possibly a transit lane (bus, light rail, etc)

And you don't need every one of these on every block/street - you can alternate. Or use one-way auto lanes on alternating streets to make room for the other modes of transport.

Re: Paris votes to ban rental e-scooters

#480

Post by alistairSH » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 2:28 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #292

soco wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an answer to this, an answer which I see implemented in some places: cutting into the car lanes. Because you don't have to drive through the historical center.

In the cities, where nobody really lives in the historical center, it is doable. (We are not talking about driving through; we are talking about access/servicing; there are very few cities without a ring -- or several rings -- where driving through center is the fastest way from one end to another). In the cities, where real people live there, it is not. Every part of the city needs servicing, including center. Your…

So delivery vans and service vans get a permit to drive downtown. Possibly the same for residents (could go either way here, based on housing density and alternative transport options). But personal vehicles of non-residents are banned.